Mastering the Masters with Stewart Hagestad

This episode is sponsored by Culligan Water

The episode of "The Adrenaline Zone" featuring amateur golfer Stewart Hagestad, who recently competed in the Masters for the third time, dives deep into what it means to play at Augusta National, a course emblematic of prestige in the golfing world. Hosts Dr. Sandra Magnus and Sandy Winnefeld discuss with Stewart not only the allure of such a historic golf course but also the profound personal and athletic discipline required to compete there. Stewart's dual life as an investment banker and an elite golfer epitomizes the balance between professional commitment and athletic passion.

Stewart’s narrative begins with his early exposure to golf, illustrating a life deeply entwined with the sport from a young age. His memories of a childhood gravitating naturally towards golf, nurtured by family interactions and early mentorship, sketch a portrait of a golfer whose life has orbited around the greens long before he graced the hallowed lawns of Augusta. This personal history enriches the listener's understanding of the dedication and love for the sport that is required at high levels of amateur play.

The conversation takes a technical turn as Stewart discusses the mental aspect of golf, emphasizing the internal competition that defines the sport. This internal battle, where one competes against personal bests and the challenging nature of the course itself, resonates with anyone striving for personal excellence in challenging fields. Moreover, Stewart's insights into the psychological strategies employed during high-stakes tournaments illuminate the cerebral nature of golf, which often goes unnoticed by the casual observer.

Risk management is another key theme explored in this podcast. Stewart articulates the nuanced decisions that must be made in moments where risk and reward are critically weighed. These decisions, often made in the blink of an eye, underscore the intense pressure under which tournament golf is played. His reflections on the 2017 Masters, where he was the low amateur, reveal how unforeseen challenges, like unexpected wind conditions, can significantly impact gameplay and strategies.

Sandra and Sandy also probe the distinctions between amateur and professional players, particularly in how these identities influence participation in tournaments like the Masters. Stewart's perspective as an accomplished amateur who has chosen not to turn professional provides a unique contrast to the typical narratives surrounding professional golfers. His contentment in maintaining amateur status, balanced with a rigorous career in finance, challenges the listener to consider success and fulfillment beyond professional accolades.

The sensory and emotional dimensions of playing at Augusta are vividly painted as Stewart describes the course's beauty and the exhilaration of competing there. The discussion about the physical and psychological preparation needed to play at such a venue adds depth to our understanding of the sport's demands. This part of the conversation is particularly engaging, highlighting the blend of natural talent and hard-earned skill that defines top-level golf.

Community and support systems emerge as foundational elements in Stewart’s story. The encouragement from family, friends, and colleagues plays a crucial role in his journey, reinforcing the theme that behind individual success lies a network of support. His gratitude towards those who have aided his journey is palpably sincere and adds a heartfelt dimension to his narrative.

Finally, the podcast does not shy away from discussing the future of golf and how traditional roles are evolving within the sport. Stewart’s admiration for figures like Bobby Jones, who exemplified the spirit of amateur golf, ties the contemporary experience of the sport to its rich history. This blend of respect for tradition with a realistic engagement with the present challenges the listener to appreciate the complexities of professional and high-level amateur sports.

In essence, this episode of The Adrenaline Zone not only celebrates Stewart Hagestad’s achievements and insights but also enriches the listener's understanding of golf as a sport that demands both physical precision and profound mental strength. It’s a compelling narrative of passion, discipline, and continuous personal growth.

If you enjoyed this episode of The Adrenaline Zone, hit the subscribe button so you never miss another thrilling conversation, and be sure to leave a review to help get the word out to fellow adrenaline junkies.

Transcript

Stewart Hagestad: You are given a really, really unique opportunity. You're obviously playing well. You've earned the right, the way, and the opportunity to be there and to be in the field. Don't just go in. And especially as an AM, don't just go in with the mentality of, “Hey, this is cool. We're going to have a great week and we'll see what happens.” No, go in there and try and do something great. There's the golf ball, it doesn't know who you are. You put in plenty of reps, plenty of quality practice to earn your way there. Go and try and do something special. If you're going to go and you're going to be a part of that, throw everything you have at it. And not just that, but mentally know that you belong. You've earned your spot in the field.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Anyone who plays golf has a secret dream to play at what many consider to be the most storied and special golf course on the planet, Augusta National Golf Course.

Sandy Winnefeld: And being able to play in the Masters Golf Tournament held every year at Augusta, the only major tournament that's always held at the same course every year, and to many, the most prestigious golf tournament in the world, is beyond the experience even of many pro golfers.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Our guest today is Stuart Hogestad, whose day job is an investment banker, which is demanding enough.

Sandy Winnefeld: But he's also an accomplished amateur golfer and recently played as an amateur in the Masters golf tournament for the third time.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: One must stay hydrated out on a golf course. And with that in mind, many thanks to our sponsor for this episode, Culligan.

Sandy Winnefeld: Culligan's drinking water systems deliver the superior filtration and refreshing hydration you need to fuel your high performance lifestyle. Culligan, it's water you love.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: We caught up with Stuart at his home in Florida.

Sandy Winnefeld: Well, Stuart, welcome to The Adrenaline Zone. We've always wanted to talk to somebody who played in the Masters Golf Tournament, and here we are. Fell right into our laps. So good to see you in person and have the chance to talk to you.

Stewart Hagestad: Sandy, Sandra, this is a thrill. Thank you for having me. When you shot me an email, I was blown away. And what an honor so thank you for having me.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: I'm looking forward to the conversation. As I mentioned before we start recording, I know little about golf, but usually we to start very basic with how you got started playing golf at such an early age, how you went from that into the University of Southern California, where I think you mentioned you were on the golf team. Just a little bit how golf attracted you and where you started.

Stewart Hagestad: I was very lucky. I grew up in Orange County. I grew up on a golf course. My dad was working when I was young, and it was always kind of something that we had the chance to do, a great father son activity for the two of us. Also just kind of having a little community. When you're young, when your world is super small, it was something that you love to do. But mom was a big believer in being a generalist, so to speak, and playing different sports. And I really always just kind of gravitated towards golf. There's this fun little quick story my mom s to tell about when I was five or six years old, I guess on my birthday, a bunch of kids were kind of at the house and she couldn't find me. And as the oldest, she was kind of freaking out a little bit. I guess she stumbled into the living room, and my father was watching the masters, and I was sitting on his lap rather than being with all my friends at the time. So I've always just kind of gravitated towards it. And then I was fortunate enough to play at USC for Coach Chris Zambry and had a wonderful experience. I was in business school. Growing up on the west coast, my mother went to Sanford, my dad went to USC. And you always kind of wanted to go to one of the two and obviously ended up at USC, so had a great experience. I'm very lucky.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: How old were you when you figured out that you were really good at it and you had sort of a career in it, or at least a strong interest to keep improving.

Stewart Hagestad: I've always found golf, to me, to be almost therapeutic in a way. So I'm really lucky that way. And when I wouldn't play, I always felt there was this gravitational force that kind of brought me back. If I want to go by myself or do something, maybe I'll go chip and putt for an hour or hit wedges or something. So I recognized that pretty early. I think a better way to maybe answer that question is when I was in college, even though I had made the decision that I didn't want to turn pro because you're good enough, obviously, to play in school, and that's cool. But I came to the conclusion that maybe I didn't necessarily want to turn pro into my sophomore year. And when I was working that summer, an internship that you'll do kind of in between years in school, I just remember this almost burning, itching feeling of just “Shoot. I miss it.” It's not just I miss playing or practicing, but I specifically miss competing. And I think it was at that time I was fortunate enough to qualify before I was exempt for seven straight US Ams that I had tried to qualify for. And I would say by the third or the fourth one, I kind of came to the realization that it wasn't just that I really necessarily loved the game, but I specifically loved to compete.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: From people that I know who love golf and play it a lot, they talk about it being a sport. You compete more with yourself against the other people. What's your answer to that or comment to that?

Stewart Hagestad: I would say that's a very real thing. When you look at the leaderboard and you look at a scoreboard, if you're playing well, you're obviously competing with other people. That's just kind of the nature of the sport. There has to be a scoreboard that's no different than anything else. But there are very few times when I would say golf is easy and I don't know all the science behind it and how that kind of works, just cortexes and lobes and stuff. But when you put in the work and you put in the practice and you're able to just step out of the way and just turn your brain off and become an athlete, that is a very unique place to be. And when that does happen, that's when you see players go and shoot nothing. And those are really cool weeks. Tiger will talk about it from time to time, and every now and then you'll see it on tour. But those are special weeks.

Conversely, if you don't have it, I've had plenty of times where before you're hitting it not great and you're not hitting it great and that could be for a variety of different things. Maybe you feel sluggish or lethargic or you just got out of bed wrong. It happens. You just don't have it that day. You're a major league pitcher and you don't have your fastball. It happens. Conversely, as I was saying, you go out and even though you don't have your best stuff, you find a way to make it work. That's kind of what you're saying, it's almost an internal competition with yourself where you maybe don't have your best pitches or your best stuff, but you found a way to go out there and compete. So to your point, I think that's where the internal battle is derived.

Sandy Winnefeld: But I'd also say that if you're in a competition in you're up on the leaderboard and it's really tight, I know people say, “Oh, don't look at the leaderboard,” but we'll talk about risk decisions in golf later on, but that's got to be part of the calculus. It's like,”Hey, I’m one stroke behind this guy.” That changes what you do.

Stewart Hagestad: 100%. Yeah, I experienced it a couple of weeks ago. We can unpack it later. But I think that leaderboard watching versus not watching, there's a time and place and I don't know what the exact or inexact science is. Certainly in match play, it's right there in front of you. So you have a pretty good idea of what's going on. And that's where you certainly get into more of the risk versus reward, chance and analytics and internal decisions. But I think certainly in the beginning of an event or I'll even take even a step back from that. When I look back to 2017, I was fortunate enough to be a low Am in the masters and coming down the Final 9 on Sunday, the guy who was on the bag for me, John Dougherty, made the comment. He's like, Do you want me to go find out what the low Am is? And my comment was kind of– It's the day before my birthday. My birthday is April 10. It's a perfect day. It's at Augusta National. Like whatever he shot is going to have no impact on how badly I'd like to play well, so let's do the best we can and kind of, in retrospect, I'm glad I didn't totally understand how big of a deal that was. But, yeah, winning's a skill and winning's hard, and it's something that we can all kind of strive to continue to get better out.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: I was just thinking as we're talking, what is the difference between an amateur and a pro? I mean, clearly the pros make money, but if you're an amateur in a pro tournament, don't you win money, too? And what's the difference between all of that?

Stewart Hagestad: Happy to help you. It's a confusing concept, and by the way, you kind of nailed it. If you're a professional, then you can accept prize money, and obviously you aspire to make it to the top in terms of either world ranking or playing on the PGA Tour now live or however anyone wants to take a look at that. I'm more just laying out the landscape. But there's a really unique and special group, and I think if you look back historically as an amateur player versus a professional player, it's something that isn't quite as common. I'm very comfortable with the idea of I don't need to play in 30 events a year to scratch that itch. I love to play. I love to compete. I'm really lucky to be part of the community that loves to do those things as well. There are people I look up to. They're business leaders. They're great fathers. They're great husbands. They look to build companies that have kind of far impacted the world beyond them that we could never imagine growing up. And those are the kinds of people that I kind of aspire to be like. And candidly, a lot of the people that have replaced a lot of the idols I had as a kid when you'd like to be, in my case, a professional. So what it really comes down to is if you're a pro, that's what you do for a living. If you're not a pro and you're an amateur, then you likely have something else going on. In my case, I'm fortunate enough to work at BDT and MSD.

Sandy Winnefeld: So I can't help but ask as a committed amateur, because Sandra and I are both Georgia Tech graduates. Do you feel any parallels between you and Bobby Jones, who was a lifelong amateur, went to Georgia Tech, founded Augusta, co-founded the master? Certainly you have to think about him now and then.

Stewart Hagestad: When you look at what Bobby Jones did and you look at what was called the impregnable, quadrilateral or something to that effect, they threw some very bespoke literary terms on what he did. But if you look at what he did, I think it was 13 majors at the time. So the US Am the US Open, the British Am the British Open. He never won the Masters, and he obviously never played in the PGA because that was a professional tournament. But it's unbelievable. I believe he was the captain of the first Walker Cup team. He played on various Walker Cup teams. He quite literally is kind of the guy that everyone really looks up to in every way. He went to Georgia Tech, he went to Harvard, achieved multiple degrees. He was a lawyer founding us to National. He affected the world in so many ways that is so far beyond literally anyone's wildest dreams, especially in our own little world of that world of golf. So to even be asked the question is kind of wild to me and something I can't even begin to contextualize just because I don't feel worthy of being in that conversation. No, I obviously never had the chance to meet him, he passed away before I was born. But it's special to even think that the question was asked.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: So for pros, they're working all the time on their game and you have a day job. So how do you manage to stay proficient at golf given that you have a day job and the demands of a professional career that's not golf? And you have a demanding job in investment banking as well.

Stewart Hagestad: I am not very much fun. That's really the short answer. We're all stressed for time. We all have different buckets in our lives that we can kind of allocate time to. I'm not married and don't have kids, so that is, I guess you could say, for the sake of the question, helpful that my guess is when that comes, that will change. But I go to work, I practice, I work out, we do it all over again. And there are a lot of times when it's a little lonely and there's a lot of times where it feels a very nebulous endeavor. But I'm lucky that I know what I love to do outside of work and my family and friends, and I'm even more lucky that I have family and friends that not just appreciate that, but are really encouraging of it. And the same can be said for work. I feel I'm just beginning to kind of earn the trust of the firm that when you do compete, it's worth my time and worth the time of the firm. The Masters is an easy example of that. I'll play the US Open in June as well, that you're not just recklessly using the time that the firm has given me to go out and to necessarily not be in the office or not be helping the teams that you're with.

And the other thing to that point is I owe a tremendous amount of credit to Byron and Greg and everyone at DDT and MSD for them to be incredibly supportive of everything that I've had the chance to do. Because if I was somewhere else, my guess is I probably wouldn't have the freedom to not only be able to compete, but to be able to put in the necessary time and energy and effort to feel you're sincerely kind of giving your best effort. Because if you're going to do something and you're going to do it at a high level, just the way that I'm kind of wired is why not throw everything you have at it? And that's where a lot of kind of the stress while still there is at least alleviated a little bit. So I'm very grateful to everyone on that front.

Sandy Winnefeld: So, Stu, before we get into Augusta National and the Masters, tell us a little bit about your personal style of golf. What would you say is the strongest part of your game? You're tall, you must hit the ball a mile. What do you think you're best at and how do you play the game?

Stewart Hagestad: That's a great question. I appreciate it. I usually think I hit it pretty well. I've seen the stats, and maybe not necessarily as well as I thought going into the Masters, but it's certainly for amateur golf, I think I hit it pretty well. When I'm sharp, I wedge it fairly well that I would feel comfortable putting it up against a lot of the best in the world. Obviously, you're going to get beat here and there, but that's definitely a strength. But I would say the biggest thing is, especially as it applies to amateur golf, is I have a really good pulse on how to prepare for events. I've had the chance to play them, and I think I'm playing in my 14th or 15th US Am this year, which is kind of crazy to think about on a totally different scale. But there's just when you've seen and understood and felt different feelings of this is what it's when you don't have your best effort when you do, or what different feelings you're going to have when you get to the course or you get to the site. I have a really good understanding, in my opinion, of what I need to do to prepare the right way and to play well. And as long as you do those things, I've always felt you allow yourself the best chance to kind of compete, given that if you have relative constraints that you've put in the work, what it takes to get your game in a good shape. And a 22-year-old version of myself would have no idea how to do that.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: It's the experience you gain over time, huh?

Stewart Hagestad: That's right. Yeah.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: So actually, I'm going to flip that a minute since, again, I'm new to this. So I'd like to talk a little bit about golf courses in general. There's probably a lot of people out there like me who might not play golf or even know much about golf. So what is it about a particular hole that a designer can do to make it more or less challenging other than distance? Because I suspect there's a lot of technical details buried in there that some of us have no access to.

Stewart Hagestad: Well, there's a few different ways to answer that. My mother's an art history major, and I've always tried to kind of compare golf courses in a way to art history, except obviously it's living and it's a park, and there's different conditions that are there. And if you go back through the years to the golden age of golf course architecture, kind of in the late ‘20s and even early ‘30s, if you want to expand it out that far, you had a lot of different architects that kind of had their own unique twist on different holes. It was all kind of founded and started in Great Britain, Ireland, and then once it made its way stateside, it started with Chicago Golf. So that's a CV McDonald design, who was the first president of the USGA and collectively brought in five different clubs kind of on the east coast to basically come together as one. And that was kind of the foundation of the United States Golf association.

But when you look at different hazards and you look at different challenges that golf holes exhibit and provide, you think of things like bunkers and water hazards, or in Scotland you had literal walls so that would be a version of trees in a way. So there's just different ways to, I would say, manipulate the both sight lines and how you feel on the tee of what the hole does. And in a way putting it in terms that you might be able to understand as well, is when you think about a mission or you think about something you have to do, you're faced, to be clear, I'm not comparing golf to going to space or to combat, but I'm just trying to draw a comparison, so please spare me that. But you're given a task and you're given a challenge, and then from there, given the skill set that you have, you have to create a game plan, and then you have to go execute on that game plan. And sometimes you take on a little bit more risk to make either the next shot be incrementally less stressful, or maybe it's worth the risk in terms of you have a better chance of ultimately, you're trying to shoot the lowest score you can so hit it where you're looking. But if you, say, go for a par five and two versus laying up, by nature of that, there's just a lot of risk and reward analysis that goes on in a relatively short period of time.

So, again, back to your original question of there's different holes that could be into the wind or crosswinds, or there's different, what are called false fronts, where it looks like there's green there, but it really comes back to the front. There's different angles that you can have, especially when the grains get firm and fast. There's various ways that you can look at different unique, specific challenges. But ultimately, it's all about creating a game plan, creating what works best for you, and then executing on that respective plan that you've laid out for yourself.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: So what do you think the most difficult kind of hole is? The features are the lineup or layup of a difficult hole.

Stewart Hagestad: I've always, I wouldn't say struggled with. I think I have a cerebral mind, but with twists and small degrees of creativity, in the sense that I like to see different shot shapes, and I like to have an aiming target, a visual target, and then from there to kind of play it off of that. So I wouldn't say I've struggled with it, but I find holes that are really straight to be challenging because you can't really work it off anything. The challenge is right there in front of you. And I've always struggled with holes that are just so right. I know that sounds almost crazy, but if the whole canal works left to right or right to left, you kind of have a better idea of where you need to head it out to and then to go from there. I would say that. And then I'm a fader, so the ball goes left to right. So anytime there's any type of a wind that is typically off the left, it makes it a little bit tougher to hold it into. Because if you curve the ball right to left into a left to right wind, it's going to stop a little bit softer. And when grains get really firm and fast and you start playing, we’ll call it bigger golf courses like the US Am or US Open or the Masters a couple weeks ago, that's when it becomes a little bit more challenging to kind of stop. And then once the ball has left the club dice, the ball is out of your control.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Fascinating.

Sandy Winnefeld: So with all that in mind, onto the Augusta National Golf Course. Playing it is on every golfer's bucket list. I've been very lucky to play it a couple of times. What is so special about that course for you?

Stewart Hagestad: Where should we begin? I mean, I think if you grow up in the United States, that's kind of the one golf course that everyone puts at the top of the mountain. it's everything. It's the music that you hear on the piano. It's the green jacket ceremony. It's Jim Nantz’ silky voice. It's the pinnacle. And if you grow up in the United States, especially, maybe somewhere in a place where the climate is a little bit colder, that's when you begin to kind of get the itch that golf season's coming back. It's the second weekend of April every year. It's an amazing venue, obviously, but the way that the membership of the entire Augusta National Golf Club has continued to really just reinvigorate and reinvent different ways for the players, the patrons, the viewing audience on TV, the Masters app, I think everyone's on board with maybe the best app that you can get on in the app store. It's perfect. It's a really special place with an incredible history, obviously, an amazing membership, a lot of which have become friends and people that I sincerely look up to. It's the kind of place that if you get an invite, there's a good likehood you're turning down a dear friend's birthday or maybe even an anniversary, something to that effect. So it's special.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Sorry. My analytical brain is stuck in this technical piece because we talked about the differences between golf courses. So how about the Augusta course? How do you approach that from a strategic perspective? Each hole is different there, I assume, and they have different risks. So is it the same sort of approach that you just map it out, or are there extra twists because it's Augusta?

Stewart Hagestad: Yep. It's a big golf course. It's a major championship. They've made incremental changes over the years to continue to make it longer. They've done a really nice job of, if you look back to, I think it was 1998, 1999, air quotes. Tiger proved it because Tiger won out and he shot, I think it was 18 under and beat everyone by 11. He won by at least 10. It may have been 10 or 11 or 12. But I think he tied the low aggregate score for the week. Historically, he beat largest margin of victory. So they Tiger-proofed it literally. That was one of the few changes they made a little bit longer. But if you drive it great at Augusta, that's really helpful. And it's tough to play well there without doing that. Biggest thing that if you kind of look back historically, you look at what Tiger's done really well over the years, you look at what Jack Nicklaus, who won six green jackets, did really well over the years, is, I think everyone would kind of agree that it's a second shot golf course, and a lot of it comes down to approach play. Not necessarily, and even Phil, Phil won three green jackets, and Phil's known for being a little bit more theatrical and, and creative and taking on more risk than maybe he needed to. But if you look at what he did, he would always miss in the right place. And that's what you can do at Augusta, where if you take on risk, that's fine. But if you miss in the right place, you can kind of escape a fate that a lot of others have kind of fallen into. So I would say it's for being such an artistic, beautiful, aesthetically pleasing place, there are a lot of cerebral decisions that are made there. And then obviously, as I said, it's a major championship. You got to go out and you got to execute, which is a lot of times easier said than done. But those are some of the things that come to mind.

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Sandy Winnefeld: So, Stu, this is a podcast about risk. We've alluded to that a couple of times already. I can't think of any other sport that requires as many different and continuous risk calculations as professional golf or even high amateur golf. Tell us about the various risk calculations you have to make while you're playing at this level. They're all over the place, right? It depends on where you stand on the leaderboard. But do I go for the green and two, you mentioned that a moment ago. But how about some of those other decisions?

Stewart Hagestad: Go in the green for two is a very obvious answer, but there's a lot of internal battles, I would say. But really, once you kind of get into the deeper decisions and just battles that you face, just certainly in this case internally. Let's just start with the fact that you're playing in the tournament and that whole week is leading up to it and you just hitting the first tee shot, something you've dreamed about for the day you started, you picked up a golf club. I remember the first time I played in the tournament and I kind of had a panic attack the night before. I mean, I had to go again, I'm sure that you can both relate. You're sitting there being just, “What if I forget how to play golf tomorrow?” Let's have that conversation. So it's every decision that you make in your life as soon as you get the call that you're in the tournament, down to, “Hey, let's not run on a potentially slippery surface because you don't want to–” I mean, that's obviously not the question that you asked.

But I think that's the level of just little things that you think about going into the event. And then obviously you get there from a golf standpoint and there's just certain places you can't hit it. I mean, one's an easy example. You hit a nice drive on one and there's, there's wind above the trees, but you can't feel it in the moment because your mind is very busy and there's a lot of stuff going on and you pull one more number than you thought you needed and you go long and then you make bogey at the first. So it's a very constantly changing and constantly fluid environment that you're maybe not as ready for as you think you should be. And it's something that if you played for a living, if you played on tour and you're used to a grandstand that's next to a green where the wind's not going to affect as much or different tee shots on par threes, an example would be at Amen Corner on 11,12 and 13, where when you've played it in practice, there's no grandstands around, there's no people. You're not really thinking about any of that. It's a relatively, I don't want to say thoughtless, but a relatively benign kind of 155 yard shot. But when there's grandstands up and there's vendors and there's trucks and there's people milling around, your mind begins to get just a little bit more busy and you begin to overthink things that you've done quite literally thousands of times in practice. And that's where you kind of go back to that muscle memory that, “Hey, go be an athlete. How can you make this as simple as possible?”

And that's ultimately, I think, when you look at what Scottie Scheffler has been able to do, who won the tournament this year, that's what he's done such a great job of for the better part of two years, is he's made an impossibly challenging and difficult game where at every decision node,, instead of playing at 180, he's played it at 178. Not to bring in extra trouble. And then he's obviously executed, which, again, is a big caveat here, but he's made an incredibly, endlessly challenging game and endlessly challenging set of circumstances. He's made it become really simple. And just as a fan, I compete and I played in the tournament, but just as a friend of his and as an advocate, we were fortunate enough to be on the Walker Cup team in 2017 together. But it's incredible to watch what he's doing. I know that wasn't entirely the answer, but I have to give credit where it's due and just kind of give credence to a lot of the decisions and a lot of the risk calculations that are maybe made not just in the event, but in the process even leading up to it.

Sandy Winnefeld: So the greens at Augusta are famous for being amazing, difficult, frustrating, and I would say a lot of fun. Are they the hardest greens you've seen in your high level golf career? Or the toughest I should say, not the highest. Tell us what you think about that.

Stewart Hagestad: They provide a really unique challenge that I had never really thought about until it was mentioned by someone much smarter than me. And going back to making complicated ideas simple. But at Augusta, they're so undulating and there's so much slope, and both the agronomists at the club and the greens committee and just different parts on the greenstaff, they've done an amazing job of kind of blending it in with just the general environment and the general course itself. It's truly kind of fascinating what they've been able to do to almost manipulate and massage different slopes and characteristics that go on in the greens. So what comes to mind here, and kind of originally what I was getting at was if the pin is back right on one and you're in the middle of the green, that's one of the slowest putts in the whole golf course. It doesn't look slow and it doesn't feel slow, but it is. And part of that is because the entire golf course goes from the top right corner of the first screen all the way down to raised Creek on 12.

Now, well, go to the second hole and you'll see where I'm going with this. I just need to kind of paint the picture to start. If the pin is all the way on the left side on 2, and you hit your ball somewhere in the middle of the green, same thing, it's a very slow putt. You're putting it back up towards the clubhouse. You're putting it back up towards that point I referenced where it's a really, really slow putt. So this happened to me in 2017. The pins weren't there this year, so I can't relate. This year it also happened in 22. So you hit the slow putt and in the back of your head that it's you're going to have to give it a little bit more than you think. Then you go to 3, 10 is always pretty much always in the middle of the green, but the whole green slopes right to left. So your miss, because there's more green on the right is you're going to err on the side of throwing it more on the right of the pen. So now you've got a 12 footer, 15 footer, 20 foot, or whatever it may be above the hole, and it is the fastest putt on the golf course. So you've just gone from two putts that feel they shouldn't be that quick, but you know it’s more. And you give it this big hit to get it there, completely kind of role reversing in your head that now it's lightning. All you have to do is breathe on it and it's going to get there.

So the skill set that I think Augusta really does a great job of identifying is lag putting, but the ability to seamlessly and very, very quickly allow yourself to switch speeds and to basically kind of have this internal battle of continually readjusting to what the golf course is giving you and to continually readjust, just different, I don't want to say paces, but just kind of the cadence of the round itself and what the golf course is providing you. Does that kind of make sense?

Sandy Winnefeld: Yeah, it does. It goes to Sandra’s earlier question about risk and golf course design and pin placement, where I'm going to offer you a nice big fat piece of green to land on, but if you choose to take that instead of the harder place to put the thing, I'm going to make you have a really fast putt that you're going to probably miss.

Stewart Hagestad: 100%. And again, to piggyback off of that, that's something that you look at some of these amazing golf courses, what they kind of provide in terms of just different risk and all that stuff. Augusta does a great job of this. Seminole, with the exception of a couple of part 3, does a great job of this. Pinehurst, where the US Open is later this year. National Golf links up in Long island is a similar thing, but template holes, CB McDonald, Seth Rayner, you can kind of almost spun a drive up. You can hit it 200 yards. I love my stepmom, but she's a 22 so work with me, Sue, if you're listening, but she can go and she can hit her 7 wood from 120 up to the middle of the green. It can bump a couple times. Then you go up there and she can leave herself a 20 footer. And if you want, you can take on the pen, say it's tucked somewhere with a wedge, but if you don't pull it off, you're almost certainly looking at a bogey or worse. Conversely, if you take on less risk and you hit it somewhere to the middle, you can play a lot of really good golf, hitting it to 20 feet, 72 times. In fact, you'll probably be a hall of famer.

Sandy Winnefeld: I wish I could do that.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Me too. Since we're talking so intimately about Augusta, I have to ask, do you have a favorite hole and a least favorite hole at that course?

Stewart Hagestad: I don't have kids, but it's kind of like talking about your kids when you have them– Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'll offer this. I think that holes number 3 and 14 are two of the least talked about holes out there that offer just so much interest and so much intrigue. Three, just because there's so many decisions to be made. You push the driver up and you put it past the bunkers on the left and then you have a little bit more of a flip wedge in and that depends on the different pin positions. So to me, if the pin was in the left side or if it was front right, given it wasn't really windy, I was going to hit driver and I was going to push up a bit further. Conversely, if the pin was front left, I was going to lay it back a little bit further just simply because it's a really tough kind of awkward little shot. So there's just a lot of really cool decisions and intricacies that go into number 3. And then 4, there's not a bunker on the hole. And it's this amazing green where there's three main tiers, but even within those three tiers, there's a couple other ones going on. And it's just as the greens get firmer and faster, it begins to even show. It's kind of a beautiful painting where the first time you look at it, you see it and you recognize what it is and how and why it's interesting, but it's almost the, “Hey, now look a little bit closer and now look at it from this angle and it begins to kind of unveil different layers.” So those are really the two that kind of stick out.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: So I want to pull on the amateur thing again because the Masters is a pro event. So how does an amateur get invited to the Masters? And you mentioned other tournaments that sound like they're a mixture of professional amateur. How does that work?

Stewart Hagestad: Yeah, so the Masters is an invitational, and the Masters by nature is considered one of the men's majors. So the majors will be Masters, the US Open, the British Open, and the PGA Championship. The PGA Championship is really the only one that no amateurs can play in because that's the Professional Golfers America or Professional Golf Association, PG of America. That's kind of their championship. But the Masters, if you go back in time and kind of look at what Mr. Clifford Roberts and Mr. Bobby Jones put together, is they actually really wanted to have amateurs going to be a pretty integral part of the tournament. So if you go back, there were a lot more Ams that used to play. In fact, every member of the Walker Cup team, I think until about ‘81 or ‘83, would get an invitation to the Masters if you were on an American Walker Cup team.

But now I believe there's seven exemptions. So it's when the US mid Am, which is what I did, which is the USA for players over the age of 25, be a finalist of the US Amateur. So finalists, the winner, and the runner up both get in, the winner of the British Am, so that's four. The winner of the Asian Pacific Amateur, the winner of the Latin American Amateur, and the NCAA champion will all get in. So there's seven amateur spots. Now,I don't have a Latin American, Latin American country, I don't have a passport for that. And same for the Asia Pacific Amateur, obviously out of college. So the tournaments that I could kind of gain entry to are the US Am, the US Mid Am, and the British Am.

Sandy Winnefeld: So you've been in the tournament three times, which is really cool for an amateur. And in fact, as you mentioned, you were the low scoring amateur your first time, which had to be a really great experience, especially since it was your first time. Did your third time feel any different? What have you learned over those three events that maybe gave you more confidence each round?

Stewart Hagestad: Well, I think it's a little bit of both. In 2017, I didn't know what I didn't know and I didn't totally understand kind of just the repercussions of what came with that, both good and bad. It was just this incredible opportunity to kind of test my game against the world's best. And I maintain that any time you have the chance to play in the masters of the US Open, for those that qualify for the British Open, the same thing. But feeling and understanding what that carrot is at the end of the tunnel is pretty infectious. And when you come up a little short like I did in 2022 and as well this year, it hurts. And I think part of being a competitor in anything that you do is winning is really hard. And when you set kind of lofty goals for yourself, and you almost kind of irrationally high goals, you do everything you can to achieve them. And whatever your goals are, that permeates into your preparation. And when you know what those things feel like, they come up a little short, it hurts. You get back on the horse and you kind of download respectfully, kind of go through your process of getting back to it.

I would say that in 2017, as I kind of joked about, but definitely didn't joke about because it did happen earlier when I kind of had a minor panic attack, who knows what that looked like? And now with the confidence of having played in the events before, it's like, “Hey, this is a really cool opportunity.” We have the opportunity to test our game against the world's best players and to do so in front of our friends and family who have, willingly, on their time, come down here to support us. And that's a really cool position to be in. And as I said, I'm grateful for it. But at the same time, it would be almost not human to feel, in a way you let them down. So there's a give and take because we're all human, and we all feel when you do things that are special, you celebrate as a team, and then when you come up short, you feel like you could have done more. So it's a little bit of both.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: So, in this year's tournament, I guess this is your third time, so you're at the first hole, in the first round, you're on the tee. All of this experience is kind of in the back of your head. What are you thinking? And did you have a lot of adrenaline going at that moment?

Stewart Hagestad: So I knew this question was coming and–

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Sorry.

Stewart Hagestad: No, no, this is perfect, because I got to tell you of everything I did going into the tournament, the way that I was able to construe this moment in my head and I don't want to say manipulate it, but to think about it and to start it, because you don't start the night before, the day before, or a week before, you start months in advance. And when I go back to 2017, you're kind of focused on the process, and you're focused on, “Hey, let's have a good shot. Let's understand what that moment's going to feel like.” And a couple months ago, it hit me, which was really this freeing kind of concept that of anything in the world that you could be doing, there is literally nothing else you would rather be doing than that.

Sandy Winnefeld: I like it.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: That's perfect.

Stewart Hagestad: When that clicked, it was this very freeing, I literally had chills. Even just saying it out loud, that was a really cool moment to be like, “Wow. You're going to be nervous, and that's okay, but there's nothing you would rather be doing.”

Dr. Sandra Magnus: That's actually a wonderful statement.

Sandy Winnefeld: So even though you bogeyed that first hole–

Stewart Hagestad: I know you could drive, too. The drive was fine. Yeah, there was an error after that. Yeah.

Sandy Winnefeld: But you actually had a pretty good first day. I mean, what? You were two over after 18 and looking good. And of course, all of us who are watching you from a distance are like, “Yes, he's going to do it.” How did you feel the rest of that day and what were you thinking overnight as you were getting ready for the next day of the tournament?

Stewart Hagestad: That felt okay. That's another kind of going back to how would that have been at your age versus when you were 22. I slept fine. Doing that quick turnaround of you play late, you get done. I buried the 18s, that left a nice taste in my mouth kind of going into that night. Playing late and then going off early if you had your pick is probably what you want to do. It's tough to sit around all day and to kind of let your mind wonder what's going on. You have a routine for probably I would say up to two hours before you tee it. But if you dont tee it until 1:00, then it's just that morning, you sit there and you wonder and you're making up things to do and everyone has different strategies. I like to read. It could be anything. It could be a book, could be an article. I don't really like to watch TV just because I feel it's a waste. But even if it's just something that you put aside for a rainy day, just find different things to get lost in, point is going back to your original question, I was okay, I was fine. My friends were there and they kind of wanted to talk about golf for a minute and you entertain it for 10 or 15 minutes and it's kind of like, “Okay. Hey, let's get back to work. We're tired. We got to get back out in the morning.” But we were doing okay. We knew that it was going to blow the next day and we knew it was going to play tough and did everything we could.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: So what was the single most intimidating or nerve wracking moment in our whole for you during that tournament?

Stewart Hagestad: Eleven's really hard. Eleven's really hard and 5’s really hard. So this is where I think you kind of begin to get into understanding the situation and knowing what you have to do to kind of get or achieve the goals that you need to. That is equally intimidating and also exciting because if you put yourself in that position, then you've done a lot of great work to put yourself into that spot. And that's where you kind of go back to when you achieve what you'd like to achieve, as lofty as it may be, you need to sit there and celebrate what that feels like because it doesn't always happen that way. So coming down the stretch and knowing what those feelings and emotions are like, certainly going into 11, I put myself in an okay spot. Didn't play great on Friday morning, but on the front line. But kind of going into the back nine, you knew that you had a pretty unique opportunity to do something special for the next two and a half hours.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Was it intimidating to play in front of a big crowd? I mean the first time? You probably get used to it over time, but it seems that'd be– You mentioned earlier about your mind being busy. It seems the noise, well, I mean, they're supposed to be quiet, but they're never quiet. But how'd you adjust to that? That's a lot of pressure.

Stewart Hagestad: Yeah, you nailed it. That's the one thing you can't really prepare for if you don't play for a living. We're all human. If I had to be self critical, that's one thing that I put a lot of internal pressure on is just simply caring what people think. Despite all the personal and professional sacrifices that you've made to get there, it's completely natural to wonder what will someone think if you do something. You never wonder about if you do something well, you always wonder about if you don't hit it the way you want to or whatever. And when that goes away, that's a very freeing place to be. And when you can kind of get into the space of being obsessed about the process, about what you're doing, that's a very healthy place to compete from. And that might sound selfish, it's not meant to be that way. But when you get to the point of kind of allowing yourself to be so absorbed in what you are doing to try and play well, as I said, I feel like that's a very healthy place to compete from. Because if you're at home and you're kind of going through your process and say you're playing in a club championship with your buddies, you don't care what they think. If you hit one bad, it's “Ah, shoot, man.” It happens. But what I've always tried to do playing in the Masters, playing in the tournament, whatever is in this– I got really lucky this year. I had the chance to play with Scottie Scheffler on Monday. But when you almost overexpose yourself to playing in front of crowds, I felt like that feeling goes away a little bit quicker.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Yeah, my whole career was in a goldfish bowl, so I totally get that. Moving those people out of your head and just being you. It's very free.

Stewart Hagestad: So if you don't mind, I'd love to flip the question on you. I mean, how did you deal with that? Knowing that quite literally the world was watching, how did you kind of compartmentalize those feelings?

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Well, you accept that you're human and you're going to make mistakes and don't worry about it. And in our business, it was more important that when you made a mistake, that you talked about it openly so everybody could learn, because it's a matter of safety and a matter of performing these experiments and these tasks that these thousands of people on the ground were waiting for you to do correctly. So it's, you just realize, “Hey, I'm human. I'm going to make mistakes. It's more important that when something happens that I can communicate that so we can fix the problem and move on.”

Sandy Winnefeld: I found my exposure in front of a bunch of people is normally testifying in front of Congress, which is absolutely not the place you want to spend your whole time. And so what you're really doing is focusing on the question and trying to make sure your answer doesn't irritate the living daylights out of the congressman or the senator dynamic. But it's so much. So all of us high handicappers joke that every round you have one shot that brings you back.

Stewart Hagestad: So true. Yeah.

Sandy Winnefeld: And so what would you say is the shot you're most proud of during this most recent masters tournament?

Stewart Hagestad: Oh, that's easy. That's easy. I have two of them because I got my mom some crystal. As I said, my birthday is April 10, and I had the chance to spend my birthday afternoon with my mom. She was caddying for me in the part three contest, and I was closest. They have this fun kind of fun little afternoon. It's meant to kind of be a unique, almost reprieve from the week, and I was closest to the pin on 4 and 9. I could obviously go and think about different shots kind of during the tournament, but given that we came up short that's a bummer. But that afternoon with my mom was a really, really special kind of moment for the two of us. Dad had been on the bag. Dad was supposed to caddy for me in the part three contest the first time it got rained out. And then in 2022, he got the look, and then it was kind of like with my mom and I. She was caddying for me in part three, and we're walking to the first tee, and it was a mixture of things she had– It was almost like, “Mom, you know how to walk and you know how to talk.” But she didn't know what she could and kind of couldn't do. Do I put the bag here? Do I go there? You could almost see the switch flipped because once that went away, she was like, “This is so cool. It was a neat moment for us.”

Sandy Winnefeld: And you weren't making her carry that big giant bag?

Stewart Hagestad: Oh, no, no, no.

Sandy Winnefeld: It’s like a par three course.

Stewart Hagestad: I got her a little small bag that I sold with lots of golf balls and cinder blocks.

Sandy Winnefeld: I love it.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Okay. So we're kind of winding down, but I wanted to ask, do you have any lasting advice from professionals about handling the atmosphere of a major or any other good advice that either you've gotten or you'd like to provide or give to people who might find themselves in a similar situation?

Stewart Hagestad: I know what I want to say, and I think it's going to come off a little bit cerebral or intense, but I just can't help myself, so I'll just go ahead and say it. So you are given a really, really unique opportunity. You're obviously playing well. You've earned the right, the way, and the opportunity to be there and to be in the field. Don't just go in. And especially as an AM, don't just go in with the mentality of, “Hey, this is cool. We're going to have a great week and we'll see what happens.” No, go in there and try and do something great. The golf ball, it doesn't know who you are. You put in plenty of reps, plenty of quality practice to earn your way there. Go and try and do something special. If you're going to go and you're going to be a part of that, throw everything you have at it. And not just that, but mentally know that you belong. You've earned your spot in the field. So I firmly believe that your goals and your expectations of yourself permeate into your practice. And I mean, as humans, again, going back to your original question of what's that mental game and what's that guardrail system, what's that look like. You almost allow yourself to put brakes on yourself. And what Sam Bennett did last year as an easy example in the tournament, I think he was leading after 36 holes or maybe even within a couple of shots of the lead after 54. But if you can allow yourself the freedom to be like, “Hey, we can go in this week and if we do our thing, if we play our game, we can win this thing.” And that might sound cavalier, that might sound almost arrogant, but it's not meant that way. It's meant just in the sense of go compete, go in there, and play to win.

Sandy Winnefeld: I love what you just said. I used to have the opportunity to talk to every brand new, one star admiral or general in the whole military every now and then. It's something we call Capstone. And my principal message to them was exactly what you just said. We didn't promote you to sort of bide your time and hope you get your second star and kind of mosey through this thing. We promoted you for a reason. Go for it. Be aggressive. And you've lived for this moment. So I really appreciate what you're saying there. So, Stu, we are pretty much out of time, but I just got to tell you, it's been fantastic talking to you. I want to talk to you more. Sometime I'll come down there in some BDT and MSD event and pick your brains.

Stewart Hagestad: Please.

Sandy Winnefeld: I'm not playing golf with you, though, because I'll embarrass myself.

Stewart Hagestad: So I think the whole let your superior win thing went out a long time ago. Let's just go out. Let's have fun. Shoot. Let's get Byron in the mix, because he doesn't he doesn't play at all. This'll be perfect.

Sandy Winnefeld: We can pick on him. Yeah.

Stewart Hagestad: All day.

Sandy Winnefeld: Although he's such a good negotiator, he'll make us give him so many strokes, it's not going to be worth our while. Anyway, all good. Thank you so much.

Stewart Hagestad: This is a joy. Thank you.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Thanks. That was wonderful talking with you. Thank you.

Stewart Hagestad: Thanks, Sandra.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: That was amateur golf champion and recent competitor in the Masters Golf Tournament, Stewart Hagestad. I'm Sandra Magnus.

Sandy Winnefeld: And I'm Sandy Winnefeld. Thanks again to Culligan for sponsoring this episode. A high performance lifestyle deserves high performance water. Learn more at culligan.com.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Please pass our podcast around to your friends, and we'll see you next week with another fun episode of The Adrenaline Zone.