Trailblazer on Fire with Kathy Jarvis

This episode is sponsored by Culligan Water

Kathy Jarvis doesn't have your typical nine-to-five job. Instead, she's immersed in the exhilarating world of stunt coordination and performance, a field she’s been passionate about since 1994. Kathy has worked on over 90 feature films, episodic television shows, movies of the week, and commercials. Her journey in the stunt world is a testament to her dedication and love for adrenaline-pumping activities, a perfect fit for a card-carrying member of The Adrenaline Zone.

Growing up in Breckenridge, Colorado, Kathy was always drawn to outdoor activities and sports. Despite being told she couldn't pursue certain sports like pole vaulting and ski jumping because of outdated gender norms, she remained undeterred. Kathy's determination to defy these limitations laid the foundation for her future career in stunts, where she excelled in a predominantly male-dominated field.

Kathy's entry into the stunt industry was serendipitous. While working in Park City, Utah, a friend's father suggested she become a stuntwoman. Without any prior knowledge of the profession, Kathy sought advice from a friend in the industry. This led to her first stunt job, where she impressed with her natural ability to remain aware of camera angles and subtly hide her face. This awareness and instinctive understanding of the craft set her on a path to a successful stunt career.

One of Kathy's notable skills is her attention to detail, which she considers crucial for a stunt performer. As a stunt coordinator, she looks for individuals who are confident in their abilities and honest about their limitations. Kathy emphasizes the importance of making stunts happen on ‘action’, often with equipment and props specified by the story, which requires a unique set of skills and adaptability from her team.

Kathy's career has taken her through various stunt roles in major films and television series. She has performed a wide range of stunts, from car turnovers and fire burns to complex rigging for microgravity scenes. Each stunt requires meticulous planning and safety measures, working closely with directors, special effects teams, and medical personnel to ensure everything goes smoothly. Her dedication to safety and precision has kept her and her team safe throughout her career.

Despite the rise of computer-generated imagery (CGI) in the film industry, Kathy believes that practical stunts still hold a significant place. While CGI enhances certain scenes and creates impossible feats, many stunts are still performed by skilled professionals. The integration of CGI and practical effects has led to more complex and specialized stunts, often involving intricate rigging and green screen work to achieve seamless and realistic action sequences.

Kathy's passion for pushing boundaries extends beyond the film set. She has also ventured into the world of motorsports, founding Femmefatale Motorsports and racing a pro truck in the Baja 1000. Her journey in motorsports began as a way to hone her driving skills for stunts, eventually leading her to various racing experiences, including rally and dirt track racing. Her determination to excel in yet another male-dominated field showcases her relentless pursuit of adrenaline-fueled challenges.

Recently, Kathy has shifted her focus to internal engineering, exploring ways to maintain mental and emotional well-being. She emphasizes the importance of understanding oneself and managing one's mind to prevent becoming the problem in one's life. Kathy's journey into inner engineering has profoundly impacted her relationships and overall outlook, teaching her to appreciate the elements of life and approach challenges with compassion and clarity.

Kathy Jarvis' story is one of resilience, determination, and a relentless pursuit of thrills. From stunt coordination to motorsports and inner engineering, she has blazed trails in multiple fields, inspiring others to push their limits and embrace their passions. Her journey reminds us that true fulfillment comes from understanding ourselves and continually striving to be the best version of ourselves, both externally and internally.

If you enjoyed this episode of The Adrenaline Zone, hit the subscribe button so you never miss another thrilling conversation, and be sure to leave a review to help get the word out to fellow adrenaline junkies.

Transcript

Kathy Jarvis: I love running, doing footage, like in car chases with the camera cars. And how close are they? And where are they? Because you're putting your action with a car in the middle with the camera on it. So if you think about what you're seeing on film, there's a camera in the midst of all that. Where are your cameras? What are you showing? Where's your edit points? What's happening? And then to work, like those car chases around the camera cars and the helicopters that are above with the cameras. And it's so fun. It's really exciting, and it's nice to get the action and get the really good drivers. There's so many talented stunt performers, and it's fun to find them and work with them and to see what can be done because some of these guys would just blow my mind about how accurate they can be. And you ask for something and they do it.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Kathy Jarvis does not have your normal 9 to 5 job. Talk about a card carrying member of The Adrenaline Zone. She has been a stunt professional since 1994, meaning she has been both a stunt performer and currently makes her living as a stunt coordinator.

Sandy Winnefeld: She has over 90 credits on feature films, episodic television shows, movies of the week, and commercials.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: And that's just the beginning. She has raced a pro truck in the Baja 1000 and on something called the Hell Tour, which is 29 races in 31 days covering eight states.

Sandy Winnefeld: And now near and dear to my heart, she's also been a ski racer.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Before we get to Kathy's amazing story, we want, again, to thank our amazing sponsor for this season, Culligan.

Sandy Winnefeld: With Culligan's drinking water systems, you can get the ultra filtered water you need to fuel your high performance lifestyle right on tap. Learn more at culligan.com.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: We caught up with Kathy at her home in Park City.

Sandy Winnefeld: So, Kathy, welcome to The Adrenaline Zone. We've always wanted to talk with a stunt performer and a stunt coordinator, and we feel like we hit the jackpot with you.

Kathy Jarvis: Wow, what a thrill to be here. And thank you for having me out here. There's so many of us and so many talented people in this field, so I feel very honored and like my number got drawn. So thank you so much.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: I'm really looking forward to this. And I have to ask, what got you started as a young person down the path of this idea of doing daring and difficult things that I expect led you to the stunt fields to begin with?

Kathy Jarvis: Well, I'll start with how I got into it and then kind of work backwards from that because it wasn't something I knew about. As a young person, I grew up in Breckenridge, Colorado, and I did a lot of sports and things around that, being outdoors and skiing. Actually, in high school, I wanted to be a pole vaulter. But they told me at that time, this will tell you my age, that I couldn't pole vault because it would hurt my ovaries.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: What?

Kathy Jarvis: Yeah. So that was a little frustrating. And then they also told me I couldn't ski jump for the same reason. So I had a ski jumping hill right behind my house in Frisco, Colorado. So from Breckenridge, we moved to Frisco, which is a few miles away, and I would go up there on my alpine skis and jump it. And I was like, “Well, okay. I mean, does it really hurt?” I don't know, but it didn't matter. I wanted to do those things. And unfortunately, in my high school at that time, I was not the correct gender to be doing the things that interested me, that really were like, I wanted to try this. I was also a little stubborn, so they wanted me to run on the track team in sprints because I was pretty fast. But I said, if you don't let me pole vault, I'm not running. And then the school got mad at me. And all 62 people in my graduating class were mad I wasn't going to represent us at state or something because I was stubborn. So apparently I'm still stubborn. I was just told that when I was at the Ashram.

Sandy Winnefeld: Was that summit high school?

Kathy Jarvis: It was, Summit County High School.

Sandy Winnefeld: Okay. Yeah. I have a house in Breckenridge, so I'm well familiar with that whole area, but what a shame. So you're going to tell us a little bit about how you actually got into the stunt business.

Kathy Jarvis: Yeah. So I moved to Park City, Utah, in college, and I started a youth development ski program. And this was started at that time at Park West, which is now part of Vail Mountain Resorts. And I wanted to start this youth program for the children who are underprivileged and didn't have the money, so they could go to Park City Mountain and ski. So I started this youth development program, and on the side, I would also work with some children. And I was working with a child of a friend of mine who had been sexually abused. And she was young and didn't have an outlet, so I would take her skiing and just let her cry on the ski hill and sit with her. And so I spent a lot of time with her. And then in return, her parents would feed me because I was in college and had no money, so became friends with them.

And Peter, her dad, was an artist. On one particular day, he said, “Kathy, I have an epiphany. You should be a stunt woman.” And I was like, I have no idea. Like, who are they? Are they circus performers? What kind of families are those? How do you get into the business? Like, we had this whole just asking questions. We didn't know. And he's like, “I don't know, but don't you know somebody in the business?” And I actually did have a friend who is and was a second AD. We used to swim together, but I asked her one weekend, and she's like, “Oh, my God, I have no idea. But you'd be really good at it. Let me find out.” So she was in a Disney production. She asked the stunt coordinator if he would meet me and just give me some insight. So I met with George Fisher, who is a prominent and very well known stunt coordinator and at that time head of the stuntmen's association. And he hired me for my first job. That was a couple weeks later.

And I apparently did a good job. And he was very thrilled with the fact of my awareness of where the cameras were and that I wasn't the actress, so that I did a really good job of just consciously, in a very subtle way, hiding my face whenever I felt like I was in focus. And when I got done climbing this tree, all I had to do was climb this tree to the second story and come down chasing a fake cat that they were putting in post later. And he's like, “How did you know?” I said, “How did I know what?” And he said, “How did you know when you were in frame?” I'm like, “Well, you have six cameras up.” And he's like, “Okay. Well, you would put your hand up or look the other way, and we never saw your face. We can use all of that. Done. One take, we're done.” And I was like, “That's it? Okay, thanks.” And then he said, “But how did you know? I said, “I'm not her.” And he said, “Well, sometimes it takes a lifetime for people to ever understand that as a stunt double.” And so then he said, “Do you repel?” And I was like, “Well, when does it work?” And he said, “In like, three weeks.” I'm like, “Sure.”

So I went out and learned how to repel, came back to set. And at that time, I didn't know a lot about the industry. Obviously, I'd only been on set one day and that was three weeks prior. So all these people were down there, like hundreds of people. And I'm on top of this building in Salt Lake City, and I'm going to repel down this building for the opening of this show to show who this character is, the main character I'm doubling. And so I'm like, “Who are those people?” And he's like, “Well, they're in the shot.” And I'm like, “Do they have to look at me?” And they were background who were in the shot? I didn't know. I didn't understand. And he said to me, “What did you want to be a closet stuntwoman?” Never really thought about it, but here we are. So I had no problem performing for the camera and understanding the camera. I did a lot of sport modeling, but to perform in front of the background really kind of made me think like, “Can I do this?”

Sandy Winnefeld: So your story about having your face out of it just strikes me, reminds me of a Peter Sellers movie called The Party. I don't know if you ever saw that. It's hilarious. He's not a stunt person, he's a double and gets his face into too much of the movie and they want to fire him. And the firing letter actually is transposed with an invitation to, like, a glitzy party, and he destroys the party.

But it's amazing that you had that instinct. There's no school for this, right? You learn on the job.

Kathy Jarvis: There wasn't a school at the time. And I don't know how I knew. I think it was just, I mean, I'm not her, clearly. And I was there to do a job and I had a wig on and her costume on, but I think I just knew. Like if you look, they see your face, they can't use the footage. But don't make it obvious. Like, you'll still see on shows if you watch them. People land on their stomach or turn in an odd way. Really good. From then on, it's just– And at that time, watching the way they move, are they right-handed? Are they left-handed? Do they naturally turn their head to the right or left? What's the gait they have? That way when I land, I can start rotating that way or just make sure I'm turning my head in a way that they would turn it. And I just became very aware of the subtleness of a being, of a person, of a character that the actor is creating. And my job was just to enhance that, not be that. It was never about me. It was always about making it seamless, that they could never tell that she wasn't doing her own stuff.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: So it seems like attention to detail is one of the skills or traits that make someone well suited to be a stunt performer. So what other kind of skills or traits do you look for in stunt people?

Kathy Jarvis: Well, now that I'm coordinating and have been for a long time, I look for somebody who's very sure about themselves. I need them to be so sure that they can tell me they can't do it. And so I need somebody who's not trying to please me but is in their own body and is very aware of what they're comfortable doing and not comfortable doing. Because the thing that I've learned over time is that you can get some really great athletes, like the best motorcycle rider or the best, whatever. But in stunts, it's all about making it happen in action, with the equipment props gives you. You don't get to pick your skis, your boots, your motorcycle, your bicycle. The props are designated by the story. And yes, in bigger action films, you can put your two cents in worth and have your motorcycle set up the way that you need it. But most of the stuff, when you're working in tv especially, you get what you get and you go on action.

Sandy Winnefeld: That's fascinating to me that it struck me just now that an actor in a movie has to study the script and the person they're trying to be. And you have to study the actor so you can be just like the actor without anybody knowing it's not the actor.

Kathy Jarvis: Yeah. To be a very good double, you really have to just watch your actor and just be that, become that person. What you don't get to know is how they're going to act in certain situations. Like, how are they going to act if they're thrown downstairs? I guess that's not a good example. But certain actions, like in fights, what their character is. So some conversation has to happen. How do you want to be portrayed? What is this storytelling? What is this action sequence telling about you and your character? Because it's all about the story. So if you don't understand or have that conversation, then you get a lot of gratuitous stunts that look really well. I mean, they look well, but do they move the story along? And as a stunt coordinator, I want to know from the director, what is this scene about? And from the actor, how do you want to be seen in the scene? And what's important to you and also what are your limitations? So I'm not going to land on my left side if that person has a sore shoulder and they have to lay there for a while or whatever, there's many communication things that should be done to create some really beautiful action that just make it seamless with the story.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: So there's a lot of training that's kind of on the job, just engaging with the main character to sort that out because it's not the mechanical stuff of doing the stunt, but it's sort of the extra around it that makes it deep when it's on film.

Kathy Jarvis: Yeah, exactly.

Sandy Winnefeld: And I know you were featured in some pretty interesting films. GI Joe, The Italian Job, Six Days, Seven Nights. What kinds of stunts were you particularly chosen to do? Or is it just like everything?

Kathy Jarvis: I'm fortunate in the sense that I started my stunt career in Utah. And so when films would come here, I do everything. On a lot of the bigger features you're hired to only do certain things, and there might be three or four doubles for one character. But because I learned in Utah, and I did a lot of work in Utah before I went to LA, at that time, there were two females. And so I doubled everybody doing everything, whether I was drowning in a river or I learned to ride a mountain bike and jump it or getting thrown out of a car or getting set on fire. All that I was very lucky to do because of the lack of stunt performers that are in Utah. And the budget. A lot of those budgets didn't have the money to bring somebody in and put them up and pay their per diem. So I got to wear a lot of wigs. I had to double a lot of different female characters. I mean, my second show was Halloween 6, and I doubled three different females there. I died many times. It was fantastic.

Sandy Winnefeld: I don't know a lot of people who would put, “I feel lucky” and getting set on fire in the same sense.

Kathy Jarvis: Yeah, because it's a gas!

Dr. Sandra Magnus: I now know why.

Kathy Jarvis: We'll talk about experience. You want to experience those things? You're in the stunt world. And I'm a person who wants the experience. I just don't jump in. I'm like, “Okay, what is experience?” All the way from setting up the stunt to completing the action for the camera to being put out safely, like in a fireburn. What does it entail? What kind of fuel are you using? There's a lot of fascinating things, like the different colors that different fuels burn on you and what the lens is seeing and what the DP or cinema photographer needs to see. Is it daytime? Is it nighttime? Do you want a blue flame? Do you want a yellow flame? Do you want a red flame? Like all that comes in before you even get set on fire.

Sandy Winnefeld: There are a lot of different body types out there, Kathy, male and female. I would imagine that there must be certain stunt actors, or what the correct term is, who are specifically tailored. Or when Tom Cruise does this, we got to have these two guys because they look just like Tom, or their body type is like Tom. Is that fair to say? Or do they manage that somehow?

Kathy Jarvis: Yeah, that's fair to say. I say a lot of the A list actors have their own stunt double or stunt teams that come in and a stunt coordinator will bring in certain people for certain things. But, yeah, most A list actors have somebody they've really enjoyed working with. And sometimes I, as a stunt coordinator, look all over the US to find a good match for somebody, they're called number one or two or down for those people who are always on screen. Because not only do you want a good match for the stunts, but let's say the actor is working really long hours and the show's around them, so they're always on. And let's just say you need that double to be on set to shoot over their shoulder. Maybe not doing a stunt, but being there for your actor so your actor can go to hair and makeup or have a moment off while you're setting that scene. And then it relieves the stress on the production to bring in another body double. So if I can find the best doubles, which I'm known for, actually, really looking because I like to look at the details and how they walk and how they look, what's the feeling? It's not so much, “Oh, do they weigh 120 pounds and they're 5”6’? And it's more like, how do they move? Because you can get somebody who weighs 125 and who's 5”7’ who has the same look but moves. Because unless they're in the frame together, you can't tell. So you can't tell that unless the costar– So I just look for the feeling. The feeling of the person and getting as close to their body type and the shape of the body type.

Sandy Winnefeld: I guess I shouldn't have used Tom Cruise because he does a lot of his own stunts. How do people in your business feel about that? He probably has a team.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: So I'm getting the sense that your attention to detail led you into the stunt coordinator role.

Kathy Jarvis: No.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: What led you into the stunt coordinator role?

Kathy Jarvis: What led me to stunt coordinator role was there were very few women who were doing it. I don't know if tired is the right word. I didn't like the feeling of somebody, a male, telling me what my worth was and whether I was right for the job or not. And what happens there is this. I'm very athletic, and I was very able to control my mind and understand what I could and could not do. So that's like, on the stunt doubling side or some of the bigger action. But there's a lot of days where you're riding passenger in a car or, I don't know. There's a group of you doing ND stunts, and I wasn't getting hired as that. And I was actually told, it's because this person is cuter than you. This person pays more attention to me. I like having this person around because they flatter me. We'll bring you in for the big stunts. And I didn't want to do that, so I decided very early on that I was going to become a stunt coordinator and decide my own destiny and help with other females so that they didn't have to do whatever that was. That now the me too movement has brought out in order to get jobs, and that's why I decided.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Wow. And so can you walk us through the stunt coordinator role and everything that someone does as a stunt coordinator?

Kathy Jarvis: So as a stunt coordinator, first you have to get hired. So you get the interviews. And up till really recently, I'd have to say in the last couple of years, many times, I'd go in for that interview. So you get maybe a script or part of a script. Sometimes you get the full pilot, let's say, in a TVseries, and you go meet with the director and you find out if you're a good match for that director. I would say up to very recently, I would walk in the room and they'll be like, a female stunt coordinator. Well, we've never had one of those, or what does a female know about stunts? So the first one was to try to become that person. And I was told by many people, when you come in, you talk about the script. When the guys come in, they talk about golf, and they talk about who they know, and they make a relationship. I didn't know how to do that. I just knew that I had this script. I was coming in to interview for this show, and I wanted to talk about the action and the feeling and what the hope and dream was of the director. And sometimes it succeeded, and often it didn't. And so that was a learning curve for me.

But once you get the job, and a lot of times I say, “Hey, just hire me. If you don't like me, just imagine the joy you'll have when you fire me. So let's just go from there.” You read the script, you sit down with everybody. So one of the first things I do is a breakdown of the script. So I'll read the script and find all the places where action is, all the places we might need somebody, maybe in a car, they're not inside the car seeing the actor. So all that. Any place that the stunt department can help out, I highlight all that. I make a spreadsheet. I do all that. I sit down in production meetings, we go on scouts, we talk about the action. I hire the doubles. I hire the nondescript stunts. And really we work making sure that that action comes to life on the page. I ask a lot of questions now with the writers, then I can ask the writers, like, “What did you want in the scene? Sometimes I know when a lot of writers write fights or something, I think this is me making this up because I'm not in their heads, but I think they see something on screen. They're like, “Oh, I'm going to create that or that.” But it doesn't really work for the story, and they haven't played it out. So I asked them what I've been doing recently and said, “Hey, let's roll around on the ground here. Let's play out this fight scene so you can see why I think it doesn't work the way you're imagining. Because I deal with action all day. So we're very used to just– I mean, my whole life is action, from skiing to every sport I've ever done. And so when you're not in that world, you don't really have that feeling of, what does this, when you're writing the words on the page. So I really tried to sit with them and say, “What is it that you want in this scene?”

And then some things I've been doing lately that aren't as popular for the men, they will write, like, let's just go with a fight. They'll write this great fight. And then for a female, the right. And she bites them. And I'm like, “Why is the female biting somebody? Do we not have any other skills?” And it's a very interesting conversation because they're like, “Well, because she can't.” And I'm like–

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Guys can bite.

Kathy Jarvis: Yeah. But I've been on this show. This is our 13th episode. We've had a fight and everything, but we've never had a male bite or even come up in writing. And so I think these little things probably drive people crazy. But for me, it's like nails on a chocolate.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Yeah. I feel like we could take this conversation in a whole other direction, but I will resist and turn it over to Sandy for a moment.

Sandy Winnefeld: Yeah, I think we're doing pretty well in naval aviation. Hearing all these stories, you'd have to ask a female pilot. I guess you wouldn't want to ask me, but, gosh.

So I imagine there are situations, you sort of alluded to this already, where you've looked at the script and a scene and going, “Not only could I make this fight better, but, holy cow, they're missing an opportunity here. There is such a cool stunt we could do that would really raise the bar.” And that's dangerous for you to bring up because you might get the director or the scriptwriter angry, but if they're good people and they're receptive, they may go, “That's actually a pretty good idea. Let's try that.” Where's the balance there? It sounds like it's probably not in your favor.

Kathy Jarvis: Here's some things that I work on constantly. I want to know the feeling of the show, because a lot of times– So I started in features and I went to TV because there's more opportunities for females on TV. So on TV, you really have to look at the pacing of your 42-minute show or an hour show. If it's on a network, it's like 42 minutes. If it's on Netflix, it can be whatever. So you have to first look at your distribution package and what they're showing in that show, the pace of that show, because a lot of stunts get cut really quickly if you're not getting to the point and there's not something in there. So I try to really figure out what is the story and what's important to the editor or to the writer or the show runner or whatever. And then the next thing I do, and it goes above and beyond. I think a lot of people don't do this because it takes a lot of time is I read the scripts, and I see where he can be turned to she or where they're saying the diversity isn't as much as–

Let's say we were doing an army film. And I'm like, “There's a lot of diversity in army films. Why are we not seeing that in these scripts?” Even though that technically isn't my job, it is my job. Because it's my job to promote as many stunt performers and get the people who don't have as many opportunities into my shows so that they can work the next show and increase their credit list. So I'm always reading the script to be like, “Hey, why does it say he here? What's he? Why?” Then I do the research before you go to the director or scriptwriter and say, like, in one case particularly, they wrote a scene for a person in the military who was a bomb specialist, and it kept saying he. So I had to call. I learned the navy does all of that training, so I had to call the navy and find out, like, how many females. I went on their website and saw they were really promoting females.

So then the next thing I did before I brought it up, because they're like, “What's the big deal?” I put on the bomb suit when it came to the wardrobe. So I went to the wardrobe, say, “Hey, when are you guys getting that suit? Because they had to rent the suit and it was expensive. And they're like, “Okay, what size are you getting?” I'm like, “Okay.” So they gave me the options of size, and I'm like, “Just get a medium.” Because I can fill that with a stunt performer, male or female, if they don't go my way. Then I put the suit on. Then I walked up to the meeting so they could see the suit and then the reflection of the helmet and how are they going to shoot, and da da da da da. And then I'm laying on the floor in the position for this, and right by the DP and the director, I'm like, “Flip my helmet up,” and I'm like, “Hey, could this be a female?” And they're like, “Well, I don't know. Do females do it?” Well, actually, at this time, there's seven females in this exact role, but the Navy's really promoting, why the navy? I'm like, “Because that's who trains them.” Oh, “Well, we didn't– Well, okay, send me females and males.” I'm like, “Okay. So then I kind of heavily set females and then a few males and not to get rid of the males, but to add opportunities to a spot where a female never would have been seen.

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Sandy Winnefeld: Let's scenarioize here a little bit. You are getting ready to coordinate a very difficult, dangerous, or complex stunt. A really hard one, or any stunt, for that matter. Walk us through the preparation process, the planning, the choreography, the rigging, safety measures, all the things you have to do for a very difficult stunt. Because if it wasn't difficult, anybody could do it, right?

Kathy Jarvis: Yeah. I mean everybody does something. So each one's different. So, for the car stunts, if you're going to turn over a car, first of all, you have to figure out depending on– I'm a female. So I don't get a lot of really big action, but I do get action. So I've had some big shows. We've had some car turnovers and fire burns and explosions and some really intense rigging for ISS shows that we had because they were all in microgravity. So to figure out what that looks like, and a lot of rigging for that because everything on that set, they were floating and had to look like they were floating. And every single one is different. So for a car turnover, you want to find out the location is key and you really have to work with your directors. And when you're like, “Hey, this won't work for us,” or this or that, it depends on your director how receptive they are to that because they'll have something in their mind, but it might be super dangerous. Like there's many trees here, things can go wrong. Also, you want to consider the environment, like, where are we? You don't want to burn anything down, even though we get rid of all the fuel and things in the car and have fuel cells and things like that. So one is the location.

The story. In this particular case, the last one I did, it was important that they got out the driver's side for a story point. So we want to see how much we can end that car up so that they can get out of that side of the vehicle once you finish rolling this car. Sometimes you can't, but it's all on the wish list. So you find out what the wish list of the director is, the storylines. You find your driver, you make sure you're very in touch with special effects because they're going to build the cage in the car. We have to make sure the seat is ordered, the proper seat for the person, the belts are in, that they're bringing their helmet or you're getting the helmet or whatever. All the safety has to be taken care of, not only for your driver, for the car, for the location. For the camera positions, where are the cameras going to be? What lenses are we going to be on? Because a car turnover is really a one off. You're going to hit that thing and you're going to go for it. And hopefully everybody's in the right spot. And so on the day there's a lot of run ups and stuff that we do prior and a lot of discussions, but on the day, you want to make sure that that set is completely locked down and everybody is safe and you've done everything you can possibly think of to make sure nobody gets hurt on that day so that no pieces are flying in the air and hitting a camera person.

Sandy Winnefeld: And you got to get it right the first time with something like that because you only got one car.

Kathy Jarvis: Yeah. Especially in a lot of the budget types that I do. On the bigger show, I'm not calling pent pulls. That's a whole different game. I mean, we crashed 120 cars on GI Joe. Yeah, same thing. You have to be super careful, but you might have a bigger budget to have maybe two shots at it, but you don't want two shots. It's very dangerous to do some of these. So when budgets are limited, it's very important you get it right in every detail, is, I have to say, on everything. It is because if people watch this, they're going to be like, “She doesn't know what she's talking about.” Yes. Safety is utterly important in everything we do.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: I think so it's those turning a car over one of the more dangerous or complex stunts you've had to put together or have there been others?

Kathy Jarvis: I think the complex things, not just turning up a car, but car chases. Where is everybody? Where are the cameras? I love running, doing footage, like in car chases with the camera cars. And how close are they? And where are they? Because you're putting your action with a car in the middle with the camera on. So if you think about what you're seeing on film, there's a camera in the midst of all that. Where are your cameras? What are you showing? Where's your edit points? What's happening? And then to work, like those car chases around the camera cars and the helicopters that are above with the cameras. And it's so fun. It's really exciting, and it's nice to get the action and get the really good drivers. There's so many talented stunt performers, and it's fun to find them and work with them and to see what can be done because some of these guys would just blow my mind about how accurate they can be. And you ask for something and they do it.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: How do you manage the safety in those cases? Do you have a whole safety protocol? I mean, we go through a lot of what ifs when we do our flights and try and mitigate every risk that we can think of. But there's always something that you don't know about.

Kathy Jarvis: Yeah, hopefully over time you're all together, everybody's there. The 1st AD and myself work really close and the key grip, and we're all talking about it. We have things like car stuff. We have also worked with the police to shut down the roads to make sure our lockups. Our lockups take a really long time. We're on live roads to make sure everything's locked, there's no pedestrians. So we worked really closely with the 1st AD and AD team and all the PAs that are out on the roads and that they know what we're doing and that nobody's in the– So now you have it all locked up, but then somebody's standing in the camera because they didn't know the camera's looking that way. So you might have a block or two or whatever locked up on your stuff and just making sure you're really, really clear. And really clear about radio. Like, if you see a bogey or you yell “Cut” or you yell “Stop,” whatever the word is that everybody just freezes. And also working with your camera crews that they have a right to shut it down anytime. That everybody has that right to say “Abort.” And that is one word, because you can imagine on a movie set is probably other places– There's a lot of chatter on the radio to get everybody into place and to go. So, I asked for a very quiet set when we're about to roll, everybody needs to check in, everybody needs to count it off, and everybody needs to be quiet. So once the action starts, if anything happens, we can stop it immediately. We can shut it down. We can call abort. Because you don't want something, a big accident on any set.

Sandy Winnefeld: In the nuclear power business, we call that forceful backup. Anybody can stop them.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: We have a similar philosophy.

Sandy Winnefeld: So let me ask you about sequencing. In a perfect world, I would imagine you'd film, whether it's a film or a show, perfectly in sequence with the script. But that can't be practical. It's got to be kind of hard for the actors because they're shooting scenes that are out of sequence in the story. So they have to be good at that. But how does that work with stunts? Do you cluster? Okay, this is stunt week. We're going to do all the stunts this week for the show. Or how does it work?

Kathy Jarvis: Well, there's different ways, obviously, but I'll just talk about TV series. First of all, I think the location is the most important. So when you have a location, it's the cost. The cost of location, of everything about that location, where you're parking, your meals, all that. So when you're in a location, you try to shoot that location out. I think the same type of importance is the availability of the actors. So a lot of times we have a second unit, whether it's on a feature or TV series, and the second unit is your stunt unit or your pickup shots. So maybe a lot of times we'll take a second unit out and the first unit will be shooting down the street. We'll make use of the same parking because financially and budget wise. And then we're maybe x amount of whatever away to shoot the action sequences. And then the actors come over to the action unit to put in their parts, their close ups, their looks, their lines. And so we might have two units running simultaneously, which happens a lot. But you are correct, we do not shoot in sequence because it's not. It doesn't work. So you have your location, and it's usually location dependent or actor dependent on the scheduling of the script. And the 1st AD does all that. So my job is to be very in touch and communicating with our 1st AD all the time, because if it rains and we can't shoot that, where are we going next? Who do we have? I mean, it's always juggling. Something can come up.

With COVID it was very hard. If somebody tested positive, we had to be super able to jump into something. And I was in a third area in New Mexico, and so I was bringing in people out of LA. We have people there, but everybody was really busy during this time to make sure that you can get those people on a plane and get them there the next day to shoot a sequence that you may not have been shooting until Friday and now it's Tuesday. So it's always just really good communication. Good communication with your teams, making sure everybody's prepped, making sure wardrobe knows my team's coming in early, because they might be like, “Oh, you know, we don't have that costume yet. Let's see what we can do.” In my role, it's a lot of communication just with every department, props, everybody, to make sure that we can get the rehearsals in, get everybody there. If something changes, how can I switch something around very quickly to help out production to make sure they can at least get the action if an actor's not feeling well or sick or raining or whatever happens. It happens all the time. So you just want to be fluid and on it and know what you can and cannot do.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: So I want to circle back, since this is about risk, I want to circle back to the safety stuff because I'm intrigued. We get medical training in case something goes wrong. I assume that you have medical people on set. So have you ever had any accidents or injuries either, and stunts that you've done or coordinated?

Kathy Jarvis: Luckily, I've not. I mean, I've had little things like somebody fell off their bike. I've never had a big accident on something I've coordinated, and luckily– I'm trying to think. I've heard them happen. I've seen videos of them happen. But when we do stunts– Let's just take a car turnover because we can relate to that, or a big explosion. There is always an ambulance standing by and a team standing by. But on set, we have medics that are that's their job. So we have our set medics, and then when we do bigger stunts, we fill it in, and we also let people know the nearest hospital or whatever, so if something happens. But there's usually an ambulance standing by for the bigger–

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Yeah, that makes sense.

Sandy Winnefeld: So let's shift gears just for a second. There's nothing as cool as a really well executed stunt in an action movie, and we all know that. But increasingly, people are starting to use computer generated imagery and visual effects, that sort of thing. Are more or fewer stunts being done practically because of that, or is there just no substitute for the real thing? I mean, the things that are being CGI'd are things that you couldn't do anyway in a stunt, and the things that are stuntable are still being done as stunts.

Kathy Jarvis: I think in my career, what I'm seeing more of is different types of stunts, meaning more rigging, more flying. When we're in the green screen, they're done just differently. They're not on a practical or location. I think the CGI has always enhanced it so that we could use the same three blocks, like in GI Joe that we were shooting in Prague and they were showing up for Paris. So they would put in things, not just practical things, in set design and set deck and in props, but also in the background and in CGI. I have not been on some of the bigger sets. Now, these volume sets where they're actually lighting and shooting everything on a volume like the Mandalorian. But I have talked to camera people and stuff like that, and so they now have sets that you can shoot a whole world in. And so, I can't really talk from experience about it, but it's a whole different world. So you're doing everything on stage so you will still have your fights and stuff, but the backgrounds are constantly changing or it's just done differently. So it is just different things differently, but they're all there to enhance what we do. And it's shifting, I think, more to rigging and more specialized types of things.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: So we talked earlier about Tom Cruise and his desire to do a lot of his own stunts, and so there probably are others. So is that impressive for the stunt community that they're willing to do their own stunts, or does that actually get in the way? And how has that changed with some of the CGI stuff where the stunts might be just in a rigging and you're floating around in a green screen, what's that dynamic like?

Kathy Jarvis: I haven't worked with Tom, but you hear. I think anytime an actor wants to do their stuff, that's up to them. I think for the stunt world, we just want to make sure that they are safetied and protected as much as possible. And anything that we can do to support the vision of the actor and the director, we're there to do so it doesn't get in our way. We would like everything to be fulfilled on that. We're hired to make sure that the vision of the director, and in that case, if Tom is what they're dreaming and hoping for. So it's more about safety and stuff. And the shots, I would imagine that when you don't see his face, Tom doesn't need to be out there. It's more of a risk for production because if something happens to him, then they get shut down. So it's more of an overall budget.

And I've never worked with Tom. I hear he's quite amazing and he does amazing jobs, and he's got really good body control, but it's still a risk. So, we, as a stunt community, want to make sure that they do have good doubles. They're backing him up, they're making sure it's as safe as possible. And in CGI, you can take out those pads that might be underneath him or the rigging that's holding him or whatever they're using, but they're not just letting him go for it–

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Jump off.

Sandy Winnefeld: Other than riding a motorcycle off a ski.

Dr. Sandra Magnus I was just curious how common it was that actors would want to do their own stunts. That’s it.

Kathy Jarvis: I don't know. I work in TV, so, yeah, I mean, a lot of times they do, but what I've experienced is they want to for so long. But when a show revolves around that character, they have a lot on their plate. And so when you can free them up or they think, “I want to do it,” and then they've done it once or twice, they're like, “Bring in the double.” Because it takes a toll. It takes a toll because not only do they have to do their lines and be that character, but now they have to worry about the action of it and getting hurt. And so, yes, we're always there to protect them. We're always there to back them up. We're always there to fill in, to make sure that production, the story and, the movie or the show is made in the safest possible way with giving as much freedom to the character that they want. But in my experience, I find they will do it, the ones who really want to do it. And then after a while, you can't. You have so much going on that you're like, “Bring my double.”

Dr. Sandra Magnus: That makes sense.

Sandy Winnefeld: So, Kathy, as though being a stunt person and a stunt coordinator wasn't enough of an adrenaline jolt, you've done a lot of other things in your life as well. So let's go through a couple of them and the exciting life of Kathy Jarvis. And one since I love to ski and grew up or did have a house in Breckinridge. Let's talk about your ski racing career. How did that start? What did you do? What did you race?

Kathy Jarvis: I started in high school and then we had a summit county race team, so I started racing that slalom, giant slalom and then downhill. That afforded me a college scholarship that landed me in Utah. And then from there, I started doing stunts after I graduated college. For no better reason, though, I didn't know what I was going to do with my life. So somebody, like I said, they had an epiphany. And I'm like, “Let's look into that. Maybe I can do that. Why not?”

Sandy Winnefeld: So you're still a skier and you still go fast, but you're not racing anymore?

Kathy Jarvis: No, I don't ski race anymore, but I do snowboard. So I ski and snowboard, so I don't get bored because you know what? Got to add something there.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: You've also raced vehicles. I read you're the founder of Femme Fatale Motorsports. So let's talk about your experience racing a pro truck in the Baja 1000. So how'd you get into that?

Kathy Jarvis: Well, my racing career started because I wanted to hone my driving skills as a stunt performer because I thought and still think you can be whatever age and still be in a car in a movie. You don't have to hold that body and that look as a double or a performer. So I decided to go to team O'Neill driving school because somebody told me it was the best in the country. And that's in Dalton, New Hampshire. And I went up there for a four day driving school and to just hone my driving skills. While I was up there, they're like, “Wow, you have a lot of natural talent. Do you want to come and learn to be an instructor?” And I was like, “Sure, what else am I doing? Sounds interesting.” So then I decided, well, if I'm going to spend a month and a month and a half up there, I'm going to get a rally car. So I found one in Canada. My husband was very supportive. We went up, got the car, and I lived in New Hampshire at Team O'Neil Rally School for a while. And then Tim, the owner and founder, told me I could not race until I took my entire car and put it back together. Because he said, I want you to know the mechanics of the vehicle, so you know when you hit something, what your mechanics have to deal with and how it all works. So while I was up there, he gave me a little shop, and I had to take all my nuts and bolts off the bottom of the car. It wasn't the entire car, but in the engine and put it all back together. So that took a while, and I learned a lot.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: That sounds like fun, actually.

Kathy Jarvis: Yeah. And then I started racing.

Sandy Winnefeld: You know as a fighter pilot, they don't make us take the airplane apart and put it back together, but they probably should.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Yes, piece and parts of it.

Sandy Winnefeld: Crazy.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: How long did that take to take it apart and put it back together? Just out of curiosity, because that's not– I mean, you were doing other stuff, too, right?

Kathy Jarvis: Yeah, I was in class with them and driving during the day and learning. They also did a lot of special ops type training, so they let me participate in that, but they didn't let me train it to the males. They said they wouldn't like that a female's telling them what to do, but they let me participate in learning how to drive with night vision. And so I would say probably a month, I think, at night or in the afternoon, whenever.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Wow, that was fast.

Kathy Jarvis: I just go into the show. And a lot of times I would get confused and I'd be like, “Why do I have more bolts?” And Tim would come in and be like, “What does that bolt look like? Where do you think it goes?”

Dr. Sandra Magnus: All right. I have to share this story because it will make you feel a lot better. On the space station, we have a Ziploc baggie that has a collection of bolts and washers and nuts and screws in it that it's the lost and found bag. So I'm just saying, this is a phenomenon no matter where you are.

Kathy Jarvis: Right? So, yeah. So then I raced a rally, and then I got a ride, kind of a ride. We got a pro truck. I wanted always to race the Baja 1000. So we got a truck. But that's the whole story. I don't want to go through it. So painful. Again, they didn't think I was going to make it very far, so the lead truck, there were three of us for those trucks. They thought I wouldn't make it very far, so they took a piece off my car and put it in one. Anyway, sad. But I made it the farthest of everybody before that car shut down with no electrical and da da da da.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Oh, wow.

Kathy Jarvis: And then I decided after, I think I did two seasons in rally, then I don't know what I did after that, motorcycling or something for a while. But then I had an opportunity to race dirt track, and I didn't know what a dirt track was. So I was in Michigan, and somebody said, “Hey, you want to come out.” My son in law has a dirt track. And I'm like, “Sure, why not? Whatever.” So I went out. They had a few cars for me to try, and I decided I wanted to try to race the super dirt late models. And at that time, there were only very few females, like three or four in the country. And there was nobody in that region, female wise. Actually, there was one female, but she moved on. So I got a car, they gave me an engine, they gave me a trailer. And then I took my money and started buying parts and tires and went out racing and dirt track raced for a couple seasons, and did the Hell Tour, 29 races in 31 days, covering eight states.

I can tell you why it's hard for any person, male or female. But female in my case particularly to race when you don't have a generational understanding of the setup of the car because the driver's responsible for how much wedge is in the car, how much air are you putting in your right rear versus left rear per track, how the track dries out, what the mud does, what gears you're putting in. I mean, honestly, when I started racing, I did not see the flags until probably my 5th or 6th race because I was so concentrated on the track where I was, I couldn't look up to be like, okay, like, you have a little thing in your ear you can hear. Like, they can talk to you, but you can't talk back. But I'm like, “Where is the flag?” So that in itself, the first season. And then I went national, my second season, more so to get more driving in, because in the regional races, I mean, literally would have guys wreck me into the wall and say, “I'd rather wreck us both and get beat by a girl.”

Dr. Sandra Magnus: You know, you are a trailblazer in many ways, Kathy.

Kathy Jarvis: Yeah. Anyway, I did learn why, if you're not generational, you don't understand. And I was driving different vehicles, and they were very generous. CJ Rayburn gave me a swing arm car out of his shop in Indiana and helped me with the setups. But if you don't understand each track and how you're driving, I could jump in Rusty’s car, who's a national champion. I couldn't drive that thing. I'm like, “How do you drive this thing?” Because I'd like to set it up right. And I like to be up on the wheel. There's just different styles for all sorts of racing, so you got to figure that out.

Sandy Winnefeld: So what else are you doing that produces adrenaline? You were like, “So, whatever.” You know, that kind of thing. But what's the next whatever?

Kathy Jarvis: Well, right now, I was thinking about this. So from going from what the body can do and your mind and have these thrills or these experiences that are really body related and external, a lot of my stuff now is internal. So I'm doing a lot of this inner engineering. It's called inner engineering and engineering the inside of me to make sure– I think one thing I never learned, and I hope to pass this on as a lesson to people, is learn how to inner engineer yourself so you're never the problem in your life, so your mind doesn't take over. Right now, we're experiencing a very high mental illness in this country, and the health department came out so that 1 in 3 teenage females are dealing with mental health or feeling depressed.

Sandy Winnefeld: I think it's true for both sexes. It's like 30% to 40% of all young people either have anxiety or depression. You're absolutely right.

Kathy Jarvis: And one of the way, and a lot of that I've heard, I can relate, comes from social media and trying to be something you're not understanding yourself. So there's this program called inner engineering. I think it's inner engineering.com, but it really teaches you how to use the five elements. I think in our world, we're accumulating things and experiences, and I don't know what we're doing on social media, but whatever we're doing, we're trying to be something. And what we really need to learn is to be with ourselves, to really be with yourself, and to understand that we're earthlings. Like, we're on this earth. And there's five elements that control everything about us. And that's earth, all our food comes from the earth. What we eat is earth. Water, without water, we would freaking die. But yet we use water in our lives like it's nothing. We wash our cars with it, we put on our hair, we drink it down, we put it in everything, but we don't really honor that that is life. Like the water and the way to hold that within your system and within yourself and to appreciate that. When the sun rises every day without the heat, the fire of the sun, we would not exist 18 hours without the sun. I hear we just freeze up. To start honoring these elements. And one of the main elements is air, the air we breathe. Nobody's going without air for, what, more than five, six minutes before it's over.

So to work with these elements within me, to understand myself and to stop being the problem in my own life. And so I do a lot of pranayama or yoga. And yoga really just means union with everything around you. It means union with the sky, the air, the space, the fire. And how do we settle our systems so that we don't go through these depressions or that we're able to maintain that? And one of the things I've really learned, and it's so gratifying, more so than any stunt or anything that I do externally, is to really look at my relationships and my relationship, my marriage and relationships with my family. And to think if I have a problem with them, it's not their problem, it's my problem. So it's really changed my life in so many ways. And I'm so lucky to have had this training before my mom passed because the last, yeah, that's five years or so just by training, just being different within myself and receiving things differently and understanding that everybody is coming from a different place and to be compassionate about that and to not be sensitive like, “Oh, I know what she meant. I don't know what she means. I don't live in her body.” And same with my husband. So what if he leaves whatever, his socks or he's not as attentive. He has a life, and I don't need to be a problem in that life. I need to take care of this one and appreciate that one. And I'm really working on now, the judgment of things to be like there's no dislike or like. There just is. And so how do you become a better human being and a full blossom being without being the problem in any situation?

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Wow. I think we could have a whole other conversation about this, and I'd like to talk to you some more about that. But I think we're going to have to wrap up this session because we've gone for an hour. It's been wonderful. So, gosh, thank you so much, Kathy.

Sandy Winnefeld: Yeah, you're such a trailblazer in so many different ways, and we've had a lot of trailblazing women on this show, and you've definitely hit the mark on that. So we really appreciate the time you spent with us today and look forward to maybe looking for your name in the credits somewhere again on a TV show.

Kathy Jarvis: Well, thank you. Sometimes we credit and sometimes we don't. But I appreciate the support, and I wish–you guys were both very lovely–just a lovely life. And thank you so much for having me.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: So that was stunt coordinator and all around thrill seeker Kathy Jarvis. I'm Sandra Magnus.

Sandy Winnefeld And I'm Sandy Winnefeld. Thanks again to Culligan for sponsoring this episode. Your life is about taking risks. Your water shouldn't be. Learn more at culligan.com.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: And please pass our podcast around to your friends.

Sandy Winnefeld: And we’ll see you next week with another fun episode of The Adrenaline Zone.