Defection Perfection with Olga Sheymov

This episode is sponsored by Culligan Water

Step into the heart of the Cold War with hosts Sandy Winnefeld and Dr. Sandra Magnus in this captivating episode of The Adrenaline Zone podcast, as the spotlight shines on Olga Sheymov's daring escape from the Soviet Union. 

Olga begins her incredible story with cherished childhood memories of growing up in the Soviet Union under the communist regime. As a young woman, Olga faced attempts at recruitment by the KGB. Victor, her future husband, stepped in to shield her from this perilous world of espionage and persuasion.

Defecting from the Soviet Union was not a decision made lightly. Olga and Victor grappled with growing disparities within the communist regime and the grim consequences faced by those who dared to criticize it. Personal anecdotes of friends and family underscored the dangers they faced.

Their escape planning was an intricate dance of caution. Olga highlights Victor's analytical prowess and their need to preserve daily routines while evading the watchful eye of neighbors and the KGB. 

Their escape unfolds like a gripping espionage thriller. Victor's meetings with CIA agent Misha, later revealed as David Rolfe, played a pivotal role in establishing trust and crafting a safe passage plan. The CIA's Soviet desk and Department of Operations were instrumental in ensuring the escape's success.

Crossing the heavily guarded Russian border was a high-stakes endeavor, guarded by dogs and vigilant patrols. Olga and Victor's ability to elude capture during this treacherous journey can only be described as miraculous.

Olga shares her experiences of arriving in the United States, and adjusting to an entirely different culture. These cultural differences, notions of personal space, and even garden parties presented surprises, as transitioning from a life under surveillance to one of freedom posed unique challenges.

The podcast concludes with Olga reflecting on her life in the United States, the isolation she faced, and the lasting impact of her escape. Her journey stands as a testament to human resilience and the relentless pursuit of freedom. It underscores the power of determination, trust, and calculated risk-taking in the realm of espionage.

As you will hear, Olga Sheymov's escape from Russia to the United States is a harrowing tale of determination, adaptability, and the pursuit of freedom. Her remarkable story offers a glimpse into a world where danger lurked at every turn, and where a momentary lapse in judgment could have dire consequences. Yet, against all odds, Olga and her family emerged victorious, reminding us of the incredible human capacity for survival and adaptation in the face of adversity.

If you enjoyed this episode of The Adrenaline Zone, hit the subscribe button so you never miss another thrilling conversation, and be sure to leave a review to help get the word out to fellow adrenaline junkies.

Transcript

Olga Sheymov: The driver says, “That’s it. We crossed the border.” And I didn’t believe it. It was surreal. Especially because it was 18 hours of nonstop adrenaline rush. I still was like in this special mode and not really believing totally.

Sandy Winnefeld: The Cold War competition between the intelligence services of the United States and the Soviet Union was intense. Part of the competition involved Russian spies switching sides because they were so disaffected by the truth about their country.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Defecting from inside Russia often involved a complex, hair-raising operation, especially when family was involved.

Sandy Winnefeld: Our guest, Olga Sheymov, defected with her KGB officer husband and their daughter, escaping the Soviet Union in 1980.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: And the getaway was done so skillfully that the Soviets thought the couple had been murdered and didn't realize they were actually hiding in the United States for 10 years.

Sandy Winnefeld: Olga eventually graduated from our alma mater, Georgia Tech, and became a successful artist. We can't wait for you to hear her story, which is jam-packed with adrenaline.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: But first, we want to again thank our sponsor, Culligan Water, for this season of The Adrenaline Zone.

Sandy Winnefeld: With Culligan's drinking water systems, you can get the ultra-filtered water you need to fuel your high-performance lifestyle right on tap. Learn more at culligan.com. And by the way, if those of you on YouTube see me cloaked in darkness, it's because we recorded this during a power blackout in Northern Virginia. 

All right. Olga Sheymov, so good to have you on The Adrenaline Zone. And you have such an exciting story. And we're very much looking forward to talking to you today.

Olga Sheymov: Thank you so much for having me.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: So we're just going to dive right in. I'm really looking forward to chatting with you today, Olga. We like to start kind of at the beginning. And you grew up in the Soviet Union under the communist regime there. And what was daily life like for you in that era?

Olga Sheymov: I was growing up in Russia, and I have all these memories of beautiful white snow, ice skating, skiing. But my family was stationed at a remote naval base in the Arctic Circle near Murmansk. So I lived on a military base and in a communal apartment with limited food. But my father managed to bring a little yellow canary into our communal bathroom, much to the dismay of our neighbors. This little yellow bird was like a hope for a better future. However, my parents eventually divorced and I was sent to live with my wonderful grandparents. I played piano and studied classical ballet. 

In Russia, when you study classical ballet, you have very strict rules because the government pays for it and you have to be good. They would check our jumps, turns, splits. They go check our weight, height, everything. I performed at factories during lunch breaks. It was support for people who worked 8:00 ‘till 5:00 or 6:00 and just bring kids there to cheer them up. And of course, on a lot of military bases where that’s the name mean. And we were so happy when the military shared their dinner with us so that was our perk. 

Soviet education was very good because not only did we learn math, physics, and literature, and everything, we learned metalworking, woodworking, and how to make clothes. And guys, need to learn how to make boots. But other side, we had to learn communal society rules. We had to go to parades at 5:00 in the morning to stand in the freezing land and just cheer for the leaders. The worst part was that we had to if somebody says negative about the communist party even as a child so that was a horrible experience.

Sandy Winnefeld: As a young woman, Olga, you were, if I remember correctly, pushed by the KGB to become part of their espionage operation. How did they try to persuade you, and how did you handle that?

Olga Sheymov: When I was in college, I was asked if I wanted to serve my country in a clandestine way. But the condition was that no family. So, I said, “No, that’s not what I want.” But then later when I graduated, I was asked to work on the student Olympic games. There was a charming guy, a team coach from Canada, and he was talking to me and the KGB agent saw this and he then asked me to go with him for dinner and even more. So I just said, “Look, I didn't know that Soviet citizens are encouraged to sleep with foreigners.” But the guy insisted and what I really did, his name was Glenn, I talked to him directly. I told him that I was not working for the KGB. We continued the game. We pretended we’re dating, but nothing really happened because otherwise I will be forced into this. Eventually, my husband Victor appeared and helped me get out and I was so happy when it was all over. So that was my journey.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Wow. That's a horrible story.

Sandy Winnefeld: That confirms your worst beliefs, doesn't it?

Olga Sheymov: Yes, exactly.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: So you met your future husband, Victor, and then you learned later that he actually worked for the KGB. 

Olga Sheymov: My third time in life, you know. And he didn't tell me at the beginning, but then I learned that he was responsible for basically KGB cyber communication security with its south post abroad. So it was a very important position. And he was very young, and I was like, how did he get there? But he was a troubleshooter. He will find a solution where other people wouldn't. And he told me a very interesting story. Before entering KGB, you have to take physical, right? Like, any place. So everything was checked, and the doctor told him, “Okay, you're ready to go.” So he goes, and then the floor goes down, and he falls on the floor in a hole. And the doctors run to him and immediately check all vitals and see how adrenaline runs. This is how they take people to the KGB. So you have to be very susceptible to stressful situations. So that was interesting.

Sandy Winnefeld: So how long were you and Victor married before the two of you decided that it was time to leave? And what was it in particular that prompted you to decide to leave the Soviet Union?

Olga Sheymov: Yes. We were married for seven years. It is a very complex question. Everybody is asking this, even people who read the book because he saw all the communications. He saw the disparity between the communist party, how people are doing, and how badly communist people treated people. Victor, he had to know everything. So he went and tried to get communist theory at the library, and they wouldn't give it to him. So even the theory was hidden. They took from the communist the theory, only banners which would be useful to communist people. Lenin realized that by controlling the media, you control population. 

And so just because we started seeing a lot of things and disparities and, of course, we also had personal stories. Like Victor's friend Valentin. His father was very high in the KGB and he was making fun of his father, saying he was going to leave the KGB because it was all bad and so he was then killed, and Victor had to do the investigation. So that was a wake-up call. And I knew Victor already had all this understanding that communism is not working and it’s really bad for people. And I just felt like, well, sooner or later, it’s going to be dangerous. And he was friends with dissidents also, so it wasn’t totally us, there were a lot of people who started feeling that communism is bad. 

And also, I want to tell you my personal story. I had an aunt. She was beautiful and lived in an apartment complex. The guy from this apartment complex asked her and he wanted to sleep with her, and she said, “No, I love my husband.” So he wrote a letter to the KGB that she said something bad about Stalin. So at night they came and arrested her. She was arrested for a few months. Family had to scrape every single money to take her out. So she came back, but her husband did not want her anymore because she was now tainted, she is now canceled. And he could not have a good career now. This was communism. Millions of people were killed and we all knew this. All these factors contributed to our decision.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: I understand it was quite a challenge after you made this decision. It was quite a challenge for Victor to make contact with the US and Moscow. And he had to find another way.

Olga Sheymov: It was just impossible. He will go there. And I'm like, I'm just praying, like, is he going to come back? It was just really dangerous. He tried many different times and he couldn't get anything. But what is interesting, Victor comes back home and tells me, “I'm looking at the streets now, as a spy.” And he said, “Something inside changed. It was horrible.” The breakthrough was when he went to Warsaw, Poland. He escaped from the Soviet embassy and got into the American embassy. And it was Halloween, we never heard about Halloween. It was a coincidence, but it was good because because he could put the hat and gloves and everything. But what actually happened because he was such an important person, he could never leave the embassy without a security escort. So he went with this security excort to see a movie and then said he didn't feel well and went to the bathroom. He climbed out of the window, but also made something there that he would be able to reopen the window when he comes back. He takes a taxi, goes to the embassy. 

People first didn't believe he was who he was. So he had to convince these people , and then he had to go back. And they said, “Well, would you like, we can take you now to United States. Right now.” And he said, “No. I will have to go back to my family.” He comes back before the movie. So this guy thought that Victor was watching movie and just went to the bathroom a couple of times. It was just an amazing timing and everything. But I think what he does, his mind was just was analytical. He calculated every minute. Everything was prepared. There was no room for mistakes. That’s what happened.

So it was a very successful and then I waited for him. Obviously, we had no communication so we’re not allowed– When people’s abroad, we’re not allowed any communications except letters. So I met him at the train station, and I see two guys in black coats just coming to the same car. They ran in and Victor comes out and they ran to him. I just thought that’s it. I don’t know what happened. My heart was like– And then later on they just wanted some parcel and they just want to be friends with him. But this was the moment. I understood. It was not a game. It’s just really really dangerous what we were doing..

Sandy Winnefeld: Yeah. And even for you and Victor to talk about it, I mean, you couldn't do it in your apartment because someone could be listening. Just to even talk about defecting, you had to be out in the open air or something like that, right?

Olga Sheymov: Yes, absolutely. We took all our trips and went to start looking at Moscow for potential meetings. So he would take me with him, and we would look at all the possible escape routes and what can happen. Learning where surveillance is, and, of course, we only talked outside. In our apartment, it was impossible because the whole building was the KGB building. Everyone was curious about Victor because he worked for the Ace Directorate, and that’s the super super secret plan. 

But in Russia, there is an interesting custom where people knock on your door with a bottle of vodka, and you have to open, they know you’re at home because everybody can hear everything. And you're supposed to entertain them for as long as they stay. Because in Russia, you cannot say my party’s from 6:00 ‘till 9:00. You cannot do it. You just come at 6:00 and sometimes people even leave at 4:00 in the morning. So it’s a very different culture. We had a lot people come in with these bottles of vodka and take it to out apartment.

Sandy Winnefeld: Wow, we should be so lucky. Did you and Victor actually plan the escape yourselves, or was the plan given to you by the American embassy give you the plan? Or did you just have to work out the plan together with the embassy?

Olga Sheymov: Yes, it was very interesting because Victor had a meeting with Misha, who is now publicly known as David Rolfe, an outstanding officer. When they met, the first question was, "Can I trust you? Who are you? How do I know it’s not KGB?" That night, I will remember forever. I just didn’t know. But somehow Misha, he just happened to gained Victor's trust. In the field, you don't have lawyers and papers. You just have to trust and deal with the situation. So the plan. They basically said it was Victor's idea on how to get to the border so he worked everything on how we get there. But they said, At a certain time, certain place, the car would be waiting for you.” So it was a joint work because the CIA had an outstanding Soviet desk department of operations at that time. They had an amazing crew, and they worked out every detail because crossing the Russian border then was an unbelievable risk. It was guarded by dogs, it was guarded by everything, and the fact that we were able to get through, it was a miracle.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: So as you were planning all this, I mean, my goodness. First you had to establish trust, and then you were trying to plan out all the details because you had to be at a certain time and a certain place, and the KGB was probably monitoring everyone in the building. What kind of precautions did you have to take? You talked about only talking outside, what other kind of precautions did you have to take to keep it all quiet and secret?

Olga Sheymov: Victor taught me a lot. First, you never change your routine. You do the same thing, you go to the same places, nothing different, number one. Number two, do not change anything in contacting other people. But what he also did, he developed this plan that eventually they will think we’re dead. This was only Victor's plan because the CIA didn't believe it can happen. And this is how we lived undercover for 10 years in this country because of what he planned. We had several tries which didn't work out. That was a crazy time, and I don't know how we did all these. 

One of the things which was very important, when we get ready, you don’t touch dust in certain places where that storage is. You don’t take any jewelry, any memorabilia, anything valuable. Absolutely nothing. He said we were going for a two-day trip to Dacha, Russian countryside so nothing of this. But what he also did that I think is very important, he quarreled with his best friend, so that the whole Moscow knew they were not talking. They were not talking because he didn't want him to be questioned, and it was very difficult. It was very difficult not to be able to see our friends, to travel. It was a crazy time. But he just was very meticulous in everything. Before I escaped, I paid for daycare, I also bought tickets to the theater. You really had to look at this with a mind of an investigator, and that's what he did.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: If I can ask real quick, you had a five-year-old daughter at the time, right? How did you communicate with her about what was going on? Did you just took her along?

Olga Sheymov: She wouldn’t know anything. We just said we were going to this weekend to visit friend. But the hardest thing was to make sure that during crossing she will not be crying. She has to be asleep during that time. So that was a very very hard thing for us because Russians don’t use any medication for kids to sleep like this. But Victor checked everything on himself, obviously.

Sandy Winnefeld: If I remember correctly, there was a moment where the fact that the CIA gave you medications actually increased your confidence. They cared enough about us and our little girl daughter that they are willing to do this. And if I remember correctly, that was a confidence builder for you.

Olga Sheymov: Yes, it's true. And Victor looked, and I really think that everything that the CIA was doing gave us trust and confidence. But still, it was very dangerous. And I have to tell you this story. They had several meetings, Victor and Misha. And then they said, no personal meetings anymore. It's too dangerous. Victor got a promotion, and so he was checked and rechecked. I got a promotion this time also. I wasn't checked like Victor, but he was really followed and everything. So Victor gave a mark at the bakery, the mark that we were ready for the exfiltration operation. And then the CIA was supposed to give us a signal back. So a few days before the date, Victor and I were walking in Moscow. Then we got on a trolley bus because the sign should be on a lamppost. 

And it's very important how you stand on a trolley bus. So we pretended like we are dating. Victor would be looking in the glass, I will be standing. It looked like a couple doing something because it is most dangerous when somebody looks at the mark. The professionals would know if you were looking at the mark and this when they can get you. It was a very important moment. And then I looked at Victor and his eyes rolled. I'm like, what's happening? But he couldn't say anything. So we just went out of this trolley, and he said, “There's no lamppost there.” And I'm like, “Can the KGB take off this lamppost?” But they can. I mean, if they know, they can. So this was crazy. 

And then Victor said, he said his famous phrase, which was in the spy museum. "We rarely make mistakes in analysis. We usually make them in assumptions." So he said, the assumption that we shouldn't go. He said, “No, we're going. We are going regardless that there is no sign.” That's what really happened. We just went with the plan without the sign from the CIA.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Wow. Did you have doubts throughout the whole process? And this was a big risk at the very end. That must have been very stressful.

Olga Sheymov: It was in the beginning. Yes, in the beginning, especially when he couldn't get in touch with the CIA. But then I think everything was so fast. Everything was extremely fast. And you just don't even think. You just get on the details. We had to lie on the floor in the apartment at night to learn the maps, learn the details which the CIA gave us because at night we were supposed to sleep. If we don’t sleep for several nights, people look at your windows. The surveillance there is very different from understanding. So you just get into these details. And you're so focused, and your adrenaline is rushing, and you're just in some kind of eerie space in the world, and it's no time because if you start allowing yourself doubts, you cannot succeed.

Sandy Winnefeld: Yeah, so you said the word adrenaline, and we are in The Adrenaline Zone for sure. So you got the sign, and now it's go night when you're actually going to meet up with the CIA car. Can you briefly walk our listeners through when you left your apartment with everything the way it was supposed to be, and now you're going to go on a two-day trip to your Dacha. How did you get out? How did that night unfold?

Olga Sheymov: One thing I have to tell you. Seven days before the escape, we had Victor's birthday in our apartment. 20 people in a small room, 140 square feet dancing. I mean, everybody was there. It was surreal. Guitar music, vodka, everything, right? And we knew that we would never see these people so that was such an emotional– And relatives came, grandparents danced with grandchildren. I mean, it was crazy. It was really a Russian event. This evening we escaped, Victor went to the office and he worked as usual, finished his job, like nothing. Monday, he had to go and report on something else. And so I was waiting for him, I packed, he told me how to pack, very lightly. But we had several bags, we had changes of clothing. It was very important because that's how he really masterminded the whole process. 

So in the evening, he came home from work, we sat on the sofa. It's a Russian custom before a very important trip. You sit for 1 minute, quietly. It's very important. And then there was a rain. It's also a good thing in Russia, like before an important event. So we took a taxi, we were wearing bright clothing, like we were going to the Dacha. Everything was colorful, everybody remembered us. So the taxi drove us to the Metro, and we made sure that the taxi picked up someone else and left so the taxi wouldn't see where we were going. Then we went on the Metro, we changed Metro. Then during another change of Metro, we changed our clothing. I think Balem helped me a lot to change quickly. So now we looked more plain and gray. Our daughter also changed into boy's clothing. And you just go to another place. 

And we cannot come to the train station too early, then people would remember us. And there was also a very important component. We bought tickets for four people. It was very important to get the whole space because there were four benches so nobody else would be with us. But in Russia, it's so difficult to get tickets. So when we finally got on the train, the conductor said, “I'm going to put someone else in your place together.” So Victor had to talk to him and bribe him so we could stay, just our family, in this closed compartment. This was, I think, one of the hardest moments because nobody watched us, and we kind of finally felt that that's it, we're leaving. 

And we just talked. We looked out the windows like for the last time I’m seeing this beautiful landscape. It was really the only time we allowed a little bit of emotions to ourselves. Of course, we didn't sleep all night. We couldn't sleep. So we finally had to make a decision on where to exit from the train. And we decided to exit early at one station. We went to Uzhhorod. It's close to Czechoslovakia, Carpathian Mountains. And so we had to change to another train. Obviously, we didn't eat, we didn't sleep. You are just like in an adrenaline zone. I mean, you’re just in a  crazy place because we didn't know if somebody is watching you. We were constantly trying to see if, we didn't know, maybe this was all a set-up. How could we know? And the borders are really really secure.

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Sandy Winnefeld: So tell us about how you had to shift from the metro and all that, and you met up and rendezvoused with a car. And it was a crazy ride, right? People were in different places. Tell us about that.

Olga Sheymov: When we finally got to the meeting place, again, you cannot come too early, you cannot come too late. You need to make sure it's the right car. So we got there, I saw this car and this is when my heart was like, “Okay. This is the moment of truth.” Because we still don’t know. That was really scary. So we ran there and the guy named Voitek he said, “Jump in.” And so Victor and daughter, there was a hidden department. I can say they had done a great job to make a special car with a secret department. But, the dogs could still know that people are there. I sat close to Voitek and we go through this area where there’s like a stressful commotion, border post, dogs barking. There was some kind of commands between guards. Guards everywhere. Then we were stopped and the guard opened the trunk. And I’m like, "Oh my God.” 

And then we were stopped. And the guy opens the trunk, and then he sees the trunk was empty except for a couple of bags. This was the moment where I’m like, “Oh, my God. I don't know.” And then what actually happened, the guard heard the music. And our guy was very smart, he got a Billy Joel tape. And Billy Joel then was a very popular. And so this guy said, “I want this tape.” There was not tapes with the Russians. And they were talking about, “Oh, you got the girlfriend. I want your tape.” I mean, there’s like small talk so the guard got the tape and we got the documents. 

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Wow.

Olga Sheymov: This is how it worked. And obviously when we just– The driver says, “That’s it. We crossed the border.” And I didn’t believe it. It was surreal. Especially because it was 18 hours of nonstop adrenaline rush. I still was like in this special mode and not really believing totally.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Your fear was relaced. You must have felt every emotion known to humans when you crossed that border. It must have been intense.

Olga Sheymov: Yes, I still don't know how it happened, I have to tell you. Of course, the CIA  team have done a great job, and Victor have done an amazing job putting us through many many hoops in Russia. And I also believe it was help from above. Because to put everything together with so many dangers, so many points, so many impediments, and it all worked, it's something that has never happened in the history of the Cold War. I don't know if it’s going to happen again.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Wow.

Sandy Winnefeld: So how about the immediate aftermath? You're across the border, you've breathed a sigh of relief, and now you have to go somewhere. How did you progress from there back to the United States?

Olga Sheymov: Well, we traveled through Czechoslovakia. There were several cars and I;m sure there was more. We just knew about a few cars. We were driving nonstop. We’re still not out of danger. It’s not the same danger, but Czechoslovakia was a Soviet Union country, so we didn't know. We, again, changed clothes and stopped somewhere, we’re hungry but couldn't eat. In Austria, we were driving to the safe house. It was very interesting how people who trained, they drove without lights, without the noise of the car and we secretly get into this amazing place. And then finally, we were able to get a coffee and something hot and just sit there.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Oh my gosh.

Olga Sheymov: It was another day and a half of driving through the night. I don’t know, altogether, a few days before we got to the United States. Obviously, we already had tickets and different documents, and the next day we went to the airport. And I think something happened. The flight was delayed in Vienna, Austria. And of course, Victorsaid, “Oh, my gosh. Why did this happen?” But it happened just because of the weather, I think. But you never know. Again, you're still under stress. It's constant stress. Finally, we flew to America, to New York. Then there was a special plane from the CIA director to move us from New York to Washington. This airplane was smaller. My daughter's ears, and she said, "Father, why you choose Dacha? So far. Our grandfather's Dacha is much closer."

Sandy Winnefeld: Your daughter is beautiful, by the way. I have to say. I’m going to interrupt. You mentioned a few days ago when I touched base with you that you wanted to talk about a trip that Victor made to China. Was that before or after you escaped?

Olga Sheymov: No, this was actually before we even started thinking about our escape. I think it was very important. His career was very successful. But this is one of his success stories. What actually happened, negotiations between Russia and China, everytime Chinese know everything. So he was sent there to figure out how do they know. They checked all the equipment, they’ve done a lot, and it’s all described in the book in details. But basically, at one time, Victor wants to look at things like the hole. So they went and looked at the building. And he started looking, why do they have all these chimneys? Why do they have chimneys there? He and this other guy figured out that the chimneys were the microphones and everything that was in the embassy, they could hear and tape. The chimneys were made of acoustic clay.

But the guy who was the head of the station there, General Kolchak, told Victor, the main thing you discovered, these chimneys were built in the ‘50s during the best relationships between Russia and China. But then they had already prepared, 70 years before, they already prepared everything. That was very important. After this, he was promoted again, like all his trips. The things is he was there seven months. We were not allowed to talk on the phone. Our letters were perlustrated. And I was questioned by a KGB guy. I had to meet and he say, “Do you miss your husband? I said, “Yes.” “Do you want him back?” I said, “Yes.” Or we can write the letter now that it’s too long. And of course, I have to say, “Oh, no. He has to serve the country.” Because it was provocation. Because some women did this and this will be provocations so his career will be like, you know, you don’t have a reliable wife and that’s very important.

So I’m just saying, the life there and especially he worked in the headquarters, in the tower of the KGB, like the secret of the secret places. So we lived under surveillance all the time. 

Dr. Sandra Magnus: When you got to the States, you were in hiding for a while as well. It isn’t quite the same as being under surveillance, but it's still stressful being in hiding. And you changed your identity, had to get adjusted to a new country, in a new culture, and in a new society. So I imagine it was maybe not a quite as stressful but still stressful to make all those adjustments when you got settled. Is that the case?

Olga Sheymov: It was a very strange situation because, yes, we changed everything. But we were kind of in a circle. It's called an invisible circle, which American intelligence did. So the lawyer worked with the CIA, the accountant worked with CIA. I went to Georgia Tech. The professor worked with the CIA. Victor went to Emory Business School, there were people there. So we were all surrounded. And then the CIA psychologist decided to talk to me and he said, "Why are you not depressed?" I said, "Why do I have to be depressed?" I didn't even know what depressed means. In Russia, we don't know these words. But you just lived in such a strange environment. I said, "Look, there are so many interesting things. We travel. Victor took me to fly over Lake Lanier in this bumpy, bumpy place in a small Cessna, two-people Cessna. So that was hilarious. 

But I'm just saying. And it was also an adrenaline rush, but in a different way. An adrenaline rush, more pleasant. So we went to sailing school. We were just learning about life. We were traveling. We would get in the car and just travel and obviously, our English wasn't that great. One of our very interesting experiences. Victor went to fill up the car, and I'm standing there and a guy comes up to me and starts talking to me. And then he said, "You have an accent." I said, "Yes." "Where are you from?" And I looked at him and I'm not allowed to say, so I'm saying, "Well, from Europe." He looks at me and he said, "I think I know where it is." So the people there had no idea. They didn't travel south. And so I thought, I can be safe in this country. That would be fine. 

But one of the very interesting psychological things, I think, for people, if anybody in the future is going to be undercover, you cannot measure time. You cannot measure life. Like, in five years, you can call your people and say, "Oh, where do you work now?" Or "What are your college kids up to?" Or "What are your school people friends doing?" But here, you are in a vacuum. You don't know anybody. You cannot compare what happened to these people. And it's very hard to make friends. In college, yes, but it's very different. So isolation puts really a stress on you when you live undercover.

Sandy Winnefeld: So when I was a Top Gun instructor, I had the opportunity to work with a Russian pilot who defected named Victor Belenkov. He left in a MiG-25. You may well have met him. And the thing that convinced him that the United States was real was when he got to go to a shopping center, a food market, actually, in Albertsons, and he said, "This is fake. You're just showing this to me. It's fake." And the people who were handling him put him in the car and said, "Drive us anywhere you want to go. Take us anywhere you want, and we'll go to another shopping center." And he knew that it was real when he went to another shopping center. And it was just like the other one. What, Olga, for you, was the thing that told you this was real, or what was the biggest surprise for you when you got to the United States and experienced this society?

Olga Sheymov: I would say cultural differences. We lived in the south, in a lovely neighborhood. Most women don't work. And then they told me, "Please come to our garden party."

Sandy Winnefeld: And this wasn't vodka until 4:00 in the morning.

Olga Sheymov: Yes, exactly. So, garden party. No, I took it literally. I had no idea. So I put on my rubber boots. I grabbed a shovel and I'm coming.

Sandy Winnefeld: That is so funny.

Olga Sheymov: They told me, "Oh, no, we're just talking about gardening over there." So that was really funny. But another thing, what I think is a big difference, is personal space. Like, when you go to a cocktail party, we went to Emory University, a cocktail party, people give each other more space. They respect personal space. In Russia, I think because of small places, people stand so close to you. But in America, that would be offensive if somebody really stands so close to you. Also, of course, we didn't know about small businesses. Middle class America, this is something like in the south. We just loved it there. I mean, everything was real. People smiled there a lot. So it was amazing. But Victor learned cultural differences the hard way. So in our neighborhood, there happened to be a German guy. But at this time in the south, you meet somebody and you say, "Let's have lunch." It doesn't mean you're going to have lunch. It's just like a nice way to say goodbye. So Victor meets this German guy. They talk, and then Victor says, "All right. Let's have lunch somewhere." So the guy takes out a notebook and he says, "When? Where?"

Dr. Sandra Magnus: That's very German.

Olga Sheymov: I know. That was really good. But the only thing I really didn't like was children in commercials. I think children shouldn't tell parents what to buy. We never had this over there.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: So I have to ask you, you mentioned Georgia Tech, so how did you end up at Georgia Tech? What was the road to being a–

Sandy Winnefeld: –Yellow Jacket?

Olga Sheymov: Yeah. Yellow Jacket. Yes. Yeah. We were taken to all this. Again, we never saw real games before, so that was amazing. Yes. But I come from a family of artists, five generations. And so I wanted to learn industrial design, human factors. And so design school was amazing because it was 30 people, and you worked as a team. You would bring your design, put it on a wall, and everybody tears it apart. This was a really good time to learn. But I also still remember, Georgia Tech is an amazing school. It's really so advanced. So then we read The Third Wave by Alvin Toffler and watched the movie Blade Runner with Harrison Ford. It was part of our school program. And we were told that, in like 15 years or more, we will be sitting with electronic devices alone in rooms. And the whole class was laughing. He said this was going to happen. And it has all happened. We are now attached and addicted to electronic devices. 

So Georgia Tech already knew then that this is what's going to happen to society. But I was so proud. I also made a toy there, and it was a very funny toy, a witch flying broom. And so she was walking and jumping in a little house. That was a funny project. And of course, we designed lamps and interior design for trucks. I mean, we just did amazing projects. So it was a very good time. I really enjoyed being at Georgia Tech.

Sandy Winnefeld: Wow. So, Olga, you are an amazing woman. And this has been a fantastic discussion.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Oh, my God. 

Sandy Winnefeld: I cannot believe. We've talked to so many people about adrenaline rushes, but I can't imagine what it must have been like for you escaping and then coming here and doing all of the things that you've done since then. And so thank you so very much for being with us on this podcast. It's been a real delight.

Olga Sheymov: Thank you. It is my pleasure. And I really enjoy your podcast, Adrenaline Zone. And I've watched some of your episodes, too.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Oh, thank you.

Sandy Winnefeld: Thank you for that.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: It's been delightful meeting you. And thank you for being on the show. I really enjoyed your story.

Olga Sheymov: And come for a Russian dinner to my house. I'm sure you tried some food in Russia.

Sandy Winnefeld: Yeah. Be careful what you ask for. You might just get it. Okay.

Olga Sheymov: Yes. I'm serious. I do this for people. I'm a gourmet cook. Yes.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Oh, my goodness. Definitely.

Olga Sheymov: Yes. When you're in Washington, please. All right. Thank you.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Our guest has been Olga Sheymov. What an amazing story. I'm Sandra Magnus.

Sandy Winnefeld: And I'm Sandy Winnefeld. An amazing story indeed. Thanks again to Culligan Water for sponsoring this episode. Check them out at culligan.com.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: And please pass The Adrenaline Zone around to your friends, and we'll see you next week for this season's final episode.