Fighting Fire from 300 Feet with Diego Calderoni

This episode is sponsored by Culligan Water

Recent wildfires, particularly those devastating the Los Angeles area, serve as a stark reminder of the immense power of nature and the critical role of those who fight it. In response to these events, Sandy Winnefeld and Dr. Sandra Magnus of The Adrenaline Zone sought to understand the complexities of battling these blazes from above. They connected with Diego Calderoni, a pilot with 10 Tanker, an organization operating the world's largest firefighting aircraft, to provide listeners a unique glimpse into the dangerous and demanding world of aerial firefighting.

Diego's journey to becoming an aerial firefighting pilot is a testament to passion and adaptability. Drawn to aviation from a young age, Diego's career path took an unexpected turn following the events of 9/11. With airline jobs scarce, he pursued opportunities in general aviation, including flying skydivers and research aircraft. His experiences led him to smokejumper missions with the US Forest Service, which eventually opened the door to working with tanker pilots, ultimately landing him in the cockpit of a DC-10, battling wildfires from above.

The world of aerial firefighting is a complex web of aircraft and tactics, each with its own purpose. Helicopters with buckets or internal tanks are often used for initial attack, deploying firefighters and water to contain the fire before it grows. Smokejumpers, delivered by Twin Otters and other aircraft, also play a key role in these early stages. Larger air tankers, ranging from single-engine planes carrying hundreds of gallons to converted commercial aircraft holding thousands, disperse fire retardant to create barriers and control the fire's spread.

Diego specifically pilots the DC-10, a converted airliner with a massive 9,400-gallon tank designed to drop fire retardant with unparalleled precision. This tank system allows pilots to strategically drop single tanks or all tanks at once. While the sheer weight of the retardant, upwards of 80,000 pounds, creates unique challenges, the pilots receive extensive training, with the DC-10 operating under its original design parameters and being closely monitored for stress to ensure safety during these demanding missions.

The dangers of aerial firefighting extend far beyond the flames themselves. Pilots must navigate mountainous terrain, unpredictable winds, and the ever-present risk of mid-air collisions. To combat these dangers, pilots utilize the "fire traffic area," a standardized procedure for entering and operating within the fire zone, ensuring a clear chain of command and a constant line of communication. Additionally, lead planes help sample the environment for safe drop zones, helping mitigate the risks in real-time.

Despite the advanced technology and coordinated efforts, aerial firefighting often comes down to experience and instinct. Diego described a near-miss in the Mojave Desert, where he and his crew arrived just in time to drop retardant between a raging fire and a home, saving it from destruction. He credits these moments of intense focus and the satisfaction of protecting lives and property as the most rewarding aspects of his career.

Calderoni noted, however, that securing engine parts is an ongoing process, further noting the government's continued commitment is of the utmost importance. There is a large wealth of airplane motors available to utilize for the planes in operation, but bureaucracy hinders a large portion of aerial firefighters' attempts to keep planes functioning. The process of upgrading aerial firefighting will help further the mission of the planes in action, and reduce costs in the long run.

For those aspiring to join the ranks of aerial firefighting pilots, Diego advises pursuing entry-level positions, such as air attack pilot roles, to gain experience and make connections within the industry. He emphasizes that while the path is challenging, the rewards of protecting communities and working with dedicated professionals make it a career worth pursuing, providing a vital service in a world increasingly threatened by devastating wildfires.

If you enjoyed this episode of The Adrenaline Zone, hit the subscribe button so you never miss another thrilling conversation, and be sure to leave a review to help get the word out to fellow adrenaline junkies.

Transcript

Diego Calderoni: This fire that probably had flame lengths of 60 ft to 80 ft high, moving at 15, 20 miles per hour and it's going straight to this person's home. And we just happened to be there at the perfect time. Three or four seconds later, the house just would have been engulfed in flames.

Sandy Winnefeld: We think we understand risk, we think we know what it means to be on the edge. But what if the greatest danger isn't what you expect? What if the biggest challenge in firefighting isn't the fire itself?

Dr. Sandra Magnus: This is The Adrenaline Zone. And today we're going inside one of the most extraordinary and misunderstood jobs on the planet.

Sandy Winnefeld: Today, we have Diego Calderoni. He's not a firefighter on the ground. He's a pilot flying a DC10 into wildfires. He's part of the elite team at 10 Tanker battling blazes that can engulf entire landscapes in just minutes.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: But this isn't just about bravery. It's about precision, strategy, and a level of teamwork you won't believe. It's about facing down the unexpected again and again and again.

Diego Calderoni: We're going from 4 CG to half CG during the draw and depending on how quickly we release the retardant, that shift will happen in four to five seconds.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: In this conversation, you'll discover the surprising reason why these massive planes are flown so low to the ground. And it's not just about getting close to the flames.

Sandy Winnefeld: The intricate air traffic control system that operates above the fire and how it prevents deadly mid air collisions.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: The unconventional way pilots read the wind, using the fire itself as their guide.

Sandy Winnefeld: The biggest threat to these missions and the aviation firefighters. And it's not the flames.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: And the counterintuitive career path that leads someone to fly a jumbled jet into a raging inferno.

Sandy Winnefeld: And the one thing Diego says he experiences during these missions that's more intense than adrenaline.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: So get ready to go behind the scenes of a world where the stakes are unimaginable and the rewards are immeasurable. This is The Adrenaline Zone brought to you by Culligan.

Sandy Winnefeld: With Culligan's drinking water systems, you can get the ultra filtered water you need to fuel your high performance lifestyle right on tap.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Learn more at culligan.com. So, Diego Calderoni, welcome to The Adrenaline Zone.

Diego Calderoni: Happy to be here.

Sandy Winnefeld: Really great to have you here and it's a very, very timely subject for our listeners. So, you know, we usually like to find out a little bit about our guests and their background. So tell us how you got into flying in the first place. What's your background?

Diego Calderoni: My background, I mean aviation was in my family. My grandfather flew. And so from a young age I always just was staring at the skies, wanted to be a pilot. And my path into aviation was kind of shortly after 9/11. And airlines weren't really hiring, so I chose to just pursue paths in aviation jobs that were fun. And those incidentally got me into fire aviation.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: So where did you train at for your flying? Did you take private lessons and then just kept getting more and more advanced certificates?

Diego Calderoni: Yeah, so I did. I started out privately in my hometown and then I ended up going to Embry-Riddle to get all my ratings and my commercial and all that. So went to Embry-Riddle and then, and then went out on the ga path of building hours and, and just moving up.

Sandy Winnefeld: So how did you end up in this incredibly unique and somewhat dangerous career path? I mean, most people think of going through Embry-Riddle, getting their license, oh, I'll end up as a private jet pilot or I'll be an airline pilot. You ended up fighting fires. How did that happen?

Diego Calderoni: As I said, as I was building hours, it wasn't the best time to go work for the airline. So I ended up finding a career in flying Twin Otters. And I mean it ultimately started out flying skydivers and I was a jumper myself, so that naturally, you know, fell into my lap. Then I ended up doing research on them. And the company that I worked for also contracted those aircraft to the US Forward service for smokejumper missions. And so I was able to get on that side of the work. I did one season as a contracted smokejumper pilot and then I was hired by the Bureau of Land Management, the Office of Aviation Services. And I spent five years working as a federal smokejumper pilot. In that avenue, I ended up meeting tanker pilots and seeing the tanker operation side of the industry and wanted to make that leap. And when I made that leap, 10 Tanker has a wealth of knowledge. Their current, their crews, a lot of them have a past of a life in the DC-10. So at the time and what we still do now is we kind of mix. We look for that DC-10 experience pool and find folks that have been on fire and we combine the two experiences to, to build our crews and so that's kind of my path. I was one of the small airplane fire guys that was welcomed to the group and ended up just getting them the biggest tanker out there flying on fires.

Sandy Winnefeld: No kidding.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Wow. There's so many things just to pick apart in that story, but I know we have the theme Sandy, so I won't divert us. But oh my gosh, that's a really interesting career path. And now you're in DC-10s and there's a lot of, I think, you mentioned a couple other types of aircraft that are flying to fight fires. And I think helicopters are as well. So that's a huge variety of airplanes. Can you give us a rundown of the types of planes that are out there and what their mission sets are?

Diego Calderoni: Sure, yeah. I mean in if you want to call it the Wildland Fighting Air Resource agenda, I mean helicopters are a big part of it. So there's bucket ships. So you know, you'll see them carrying long lines with buckets. Or now there's helicopters with internal tanks. There's initial attack helicruise on helicopters. So it's usually a bucket helicopter that has anywhere between four to, you know, they'll carry four firefighters and then other firefighters will follow. They’re an initial attack resource. There's firefighters that repel out of helicopters to perform initial attack. You know, the whole idea is to get the fire while it's small before it can get big. So those are your kind of initial attack platforms. Smoke jumpers are part of that initial attack platform. And in Twin Otters, Casa 212s, they use it. They use the DHC8. Yeah, they'll use the Dash 8, I believe the 200 or maybe it's the 100. So quite a variety in that initial attack realm. And then when we get into dispersing retardants, we've got single engine air tankers carrying roughly 750 to 800 gallons. There's the Cal Fire S-2 fleet carrying I believe 1200 gallons. And then we get into the large air tank.

Sandy Winnefeld: My dad used to fly S-2s.

Diego Calderoni: Okay. All right. So then we'll get into the large air tankers. And those can range from Q400s to MD87s to the BAE 146s. And they're working in the 2800 gallons and above. And then once we get to 7000, actually 8000 gallons and above, then it's a very large air tanker. So in that large air tanker fleet, C130s, 737s, MD87s, BAE 146s, RJs, and then the VLAT  Realm, which right now is the DC-10. And then there was the 747, which is no longer in service as a tanker.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Wow, that's a lot. I had no idea there were so many planes involved.

Sandy Winnefeld: And so you're flying the big guy. Can you tell us specifically about the DC-10s you fly for 10 Tanker over these fires and some of the specialized equipment that you have that allows you to do the mission? 

Diego Calderoni: Our aircraft, you know, obviously came from an airline background in about, let's see, it was, I believe, in 2002, 2004 is when these retired DC-10s started to get a new life and be converted into tankers. And of course, the company started out with one, and through the years it's turned into four. But what this airplane allowed was, you know, its tall landing gear allowed them to hang a tank off the belly of the aircraft. And it looks like one tank, but it's actually three tanks which total 9400 gallons. So this tank originated from the helicopter fleet. So if you look at sky cranes, the tank that the sky crane has attached to it is essentially the DC-10 tank. So the tanks 1 and 3 are pretty much the same right off the helicopter. Tanks two, the middle tank was expanded to carry 4000 gallons as opposed to 2700. So the three tanks work together with a tank controller, which allows us to drop sequentially one tank at a time for lighter coverage levels. And if we need larger coverage levels, we can drop all the tanks at the same time. I can explain some levels if you like.

Sandy Winnefeld: Yeah, that's a lot of fire retardant. If I do my math right, that's about 60,000 pounds of stuff you're carrying.

Diego Calderoni: It weighs about 9.1 pounds per gallon. So it's about an 84,000 payload.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Oh, my gosh.

Sandy Winnefeld: And when you drop all that stuff, it changes the center of gravity of the airplane. So you got to be thinking about that, right?

Diego Calderoni: It does, yeah. We're going from 4 CG to half CG during the drop. And depending on how quickly we release the retardant, the CG change can be slow. You know, we could have about a 10 to 20-second timeframe for that shift to happen. Or if we're dropping high coverage levels, that shift will happen in four to five seconds.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Wow.

Sandy Winnefeld: Wow. Unnoticeable.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: You're passionate about pushing yourself to always be better. Culligan's water experts feel the same.

Sandy Winnefeld: That's why their smart reverse osmosis filtration systems do more than deliver the ultra refreshing, pure tasting water you deserve. Their app also lets you set drinking water goals, see drinking water quality information and get filter change alerts.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: And with cleaner, safer, great tasting water available right from the tap, you can also feel good about all those single use plastic bottles you're saving from landfills.

Sandy Winnefeld: Get started today by scheduling your free water test at Culligan.com.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: So you have to have some pretty specialized training to manage an airplane with not only the airplane changing its flying characteristics so fast depending upon the mission, but just the coordination and how to do the mission appropriately. So what kind of training do you guys go through? It has to be pretty intense.

Diego Calderoni: So the training is multifaceted. So for one there are four service provided training every three years. Most tanker pilots are going to the National Aerial Firefighter Academy. So within that training, we're essentially learning the system in which we operate and the processes of getting to and from a fire and why we drop certain coverage levels. And so that's kind of our ground foundational training. And then as we go out and work on fires, you know, as a co-pilot, you're gathering and learning the processes and seeing how to integrate the aircraft into the fire traffic area. So a lot of it is on the job kind of training and just immersing yourself in the environment. And then when you start upgrading and start doing drops, then you're working with company instructors and we have kind of breakout ground lessons where we're learning how to fly the aircraft as well as apply the retardant to the spot it needs to go. So we're learning about drift kind of building our gun sight on where we say start and stop for these drops and working on our accuracy.

Sandy Winnefeld: Do you have any infrared equipment or anything like that to help you detect where the hotspot is or where the fire is or are you just flying in there where they tell you to go and you see the smoke and you drop?

Diego Calderoni: Some aircraft have infrared cameras. A lot of the infrared cameras you'll see on the water on scoopers or fire bosses. Aircraft that are dropping water will have that infrared because they're usually working direct with the fire. So when they work direct, they want to see where the cool and the hot spots are. Our aircraft does have an infrared camera, but the application of retardant is not necessarily direct to the fire. We're using it to corral and put alongside the fire. So seeing those hotspots isn't as vital as it would be in a water dropping aircraft.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: So you said you have something like 80,000 gallons, 84,000 gallons. How long does it take to reload your aircraft? You do one or two missions a day, or does it take so long to reload that thing?

Diego Calderoni: It’s 84,000 lbs.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Oh, pounds, sorry.

Diego Calderoni: 9400 gallons. 

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Yeah, that's still a lot.

Diego Calderoni: It's still a lot. But yeah, we'll fly back to the retardant base land. And our kind of average, I would say, is anywhere between 20 to 22 minutes to reload our aircraft.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Wow.

Diego Calderoni: Yeah. The tanker base– 

Sandy Winnefeld: Do you even shutdown the engines while you're doing that?

Diego Calderoni: We do. Yeah, we do. So the tanker bases have gotten more efficient at loading our aircraft. Though if it's on the slower side, it might be 30 minutes, but within 20 to 30 minutes, we're reloaded.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: How much gas? I mean, the gas on the airplane to fly the airplane. Does that allow you to do several trips? It seems like you might be a gas guzzler with that kind of–

Diego Calderoni: Yeah. So depending on the proximity of the fire to the tanker base, I mean, we can probably go and do three to four drops and then refuel. The longer missions will fuel every flight. And we're usually putting about two and a half to three hours of fuel on board.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Wow, that's a lot of flying.

Sandy Winnefeld: And so when you're in a, I guess, single sortie or event you would be in the cockpit for six to eight hours, I guess, doing these missions going back and forth, reloading.

Diego Calderoni: We're correct. Yeah. If we're loading returns all day, we're just staying in the airplane and we'll be in the airplane six to seven hours. We don't get out. We drop a bucket to get food and we just land getting more retardant and keep going until the fire says they don't need us anymore.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: It's the ultimate meals on the go. So with this kind of cadence, are you busy year round? I mean it seems like wildfires, we always hear about them seasonally in California, but I know Colorado's had some, there's been in some other places. So are there fires to fight, you know, year round and is that domestic and international or just domestic?

Diego Calderoni: You know, it's domestic. It's starting to feel like it's year round. International, the work is year round because when it’s our winter it’s South America’s summer and a lot of countries are reaching out to contract tankers, you know, to support their firefighting efforts. So fire seasons are slowly– If you want to, worldwide it is year round. And domestically, if we have a dry winter, you know, strong winds and like we saw in California this year, the conditions are right to burn and the fire season continues.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: So you're on the road a lot.

[ 0:17:47.378 ] Diego Calderoni:

We are, yeah.

Sandy Winnefeld: Well, you wanted to be an airline pilot and you got it in spades, I guess, you're flying a different kind of cargo. So you guys are controlled by the National Interagency Fire center, right? The NIFC or whatever they call it. Tell us about your pre-flight routine. What kind of brief do you get? How do they give guidance to you before you take off, especially when there's multiple fires.

Diego Calderoni: So our day starts just at our own time at the tanker base. What the local region decides, you know, they'll have pilots, they'll have air crews come on at 7:00 am, 8:00 am, 9:00 am we show up, we get the plane ready to fly. Sometime within the first hour to two hours that we're at the tanker base, they'll have a tanker based briefing and in that briefing they discuss the local weather, ongoing fires, fires in other regions. There's a national situation report that we can get into and kind of look at what the fires are doing nationally, the resources that are on them. So we'll have that briefing and we'll kind of run some risk assessments during that briefing for the local area. And then at that point we were standing by, you know, we just hang out at the tanker base and wait for that fire call. And when that fire call comes in, we receive what they call a knee board. And on that knee board are the coordinates to the fire, the frequencies that we're going to use to communicate, any other air resources that are assigned to that fire. Sometimes they'll put the hazards that have been discussed on that dispatch form and so we get this piece of paper and we go. So within getting that dispatch, we're off the ground in 20 to 25 minutes. And a lot of the planning that we're doing is just, it's on the fly. And as we move towards, as we move closer to that fire and as we get to that fire, then we kind of start, we figure out the mission on the fly. And then as we go back to and back from a fire, you know, a plan develops and then we start kind of getting into perhaps a standard routine for that mission.

Sandy Winnefeld: So there's not somebody on the ground going, you know, live saying, I need you on this, the east side of this ridge or whatever. That's kind of, you sort of decide that in advance and how you are going to attack the fire.

Diego Calderoni: Those decisions are our ordering decision. Yeah, it was kind of a two-part question. So our ordering process is coming from the ground firefighter, that's who ultimately all the tankers are working. There's an incident commander on the ground and they have mission priorities for suppressant, you know, retardant or water perhaps. So they'll order the helicopters, they'll order the tankers. They work with an air tactical group supervisor so that individual is an experienced wildland firefighter sitting in an aircraft above the fire that helps the incident commander build the plan on how to use aircraft to help that current mission, that current fire. So when they build that plan, then they'll put in the order for, hey, we want two helicopters, we want large air tankers and one VLAT that goes through the dispatch system. That dispatch system then orders it from the tanker bases and then we go to war.

Sandy Winnefeld: So I'm used to being a close air support guy, you know, you got to get a bomb exactly on target at exactly the right time. And so you have a whole system for, you know, coordinates and all that. Are they giving you coordinates like start your drop at this latitude and longitude or is it, see that mountain over there? The wind's blowing from the east, I need you to drop it on the west side. How are those instructions delivered to you?

Diego Calderoni: The air attacks will. If air attacks are working directly with the tanker, they have that conversation with the pilot and they say there is fire anatomy language that we'll use. There's the left flank, right flank, the heel, the head of a fire. So they can guide in a pilot and say, “Hey, we're supporting the left flank right now. We want you to start at the heel and carry retardant down the flank.” So that would be like the broad stroke. And then when they get on scene, the air attack, and in our case with the DC-10, where we're using a lead plane pilot, that lead plane pilot is like that forward controller. They're there sampling the run, getting some low runs in, figuring out headings and altitudes. And they can give us start and stop points on saying, hey, we want you to start here, stop here. We visually queue into that. And then as far as getting the retardant on the ground, there's no technology other than just your gut on when to say start and stop and just experience of doing it and learning how the retardant falls and wins and how it's going to drift, we just do that on the fly.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: So you guys have a lead plane ahead of you that's kind of doing dry runs and dress rehearsals for you so that you can go in and be pretty effective with the Big Bird.

Diego Calderoni: Yes.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Yeah, I didn't know that.

Sandy Winnefeld: So do you ever get a call like, “Oh, baby. You nailed it.” Or like, “Hey, you were like 100 yards short.” Or how does that go?

Diego Calderoni: All the time. All the time.

Sandy Winnefeld: Mostly you nailed it, I hope.

Diego Calderoni: Yeah, that's what we want. That's what we want to hear.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Yeah, yeah, you nailed it. Absolutely. In this schema, then the lead plane then I guess can figure out the environment. Because I'm curious, what are the most dangerous environmental conditions that you guys have to put up with and then how you manage it? It sounds like you have a recon guy to manage it at least. But what's the most dangerous environment?

Diego Calderoni: You know, the most dangerous environment is mountainous terrain and strong winds. If a fire is burning on the lee side of a mountain, it's going to be turbulent, there's going to be downdrafts, updrafts. And so, you know, some aircraft will go out there with leads. But a lot of times if conditions are challenging, the lead plane is ordered and they are out there sampling the environment for us and they'll tell us, “Hey, on, on base to final, there's some down air right here ,” or “Hey, here's some up here.” And then, just recently I was on the Hughes fire and you know, an area that we were trying to work in, the winds, the tanker in front of me did two go arounds and on the third they just said, “Hey. We can't work in this area anymore. The conditions have changed, it's gotten worse.” And the lead plane was there saying, “Hey, guys. We're pulling out of this spot. Let's go pick up a hold and we'll work on a new objective area.” And then we were able to move to a different part of the fire and help in that area. So the live feedback from the leads is, you know, helping mitigate the risk. And there are tankers that will go out there without leads but they'll take a slower approach so they won't go low level right away. They'll do a kind of a high pass to sample the air and if it doesn't feel good, they call it off. And there's a very good culture within the wildland firefighting arena that, you know, if the pilots don't like it, they don't feel safe, we announce it and we just move on to a different spot, a safer spot.

Sandy Winnefeld: You live to embrace risk in the air, on the slopes and anywhere your determination takes you. But when it comes to the drinking water that fuels your adventures, you're not looking to take chances. 

Dr. Sandra Magnus: With cutting edge filtration that can target contaminants as small as a single atom, Culligan's reverse osmosis filtration systems deliver the next level of hydration you need to keep working at peak performance whatever the day brings.

Sandy Winnefeld: Get started by scheduling your free water test at culligan.com. So you're taking a several hundred thousand pound airplane with 80,000 pounds of fire retardant in it and you're trying to get it to exactly the right spot. So how low are you off the ground for an optimal drop? Are you smelling smoke in the cockpit? It's so low. What altitude are you normally?

Diego Calderoni: If we go through smoke, we'll smell it. So all our drops, we aim to be 250 ft to 300 ft above the vegetation is where the ideal drop height is. And that's the ideal drop height because what happens is as that retardant comes out of the airplane, it loses its forward momentum and it rains down. That's the ideal drop height. So certain tankers will drop lower. But for us, the DC-10, we're doing 250 to 350 AGO.

Sandy Winnefeld: So just to give our listeners some context, for a standard military low level training flight you will normally fly, maybe you're pretty fast at 400 knots or so, but you're 500 ft off the ground. Sometimes in some circumstances you'll go down lower than that. But you're flying this big airplane 250 ft off the ground in mountainous terrain to try to put out a fire, it's incredible.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: With unknown winds, it’s dangerous, you guys have to watch the winds really carefully, I would think.

Diego Calderoni: We do, we do. And you know, the fire is our biggest wind indicator. So, you know, as we get into that low level environment, we get to see what that smoke is doing. And, and it's giving us a wind indication. And you know if the smoke is standing up, winds are lighter. If the smoke is laid down to the ground, the winds are stronger. So you learn to pick up on all these visual cues and just by flying in those environments often you kind of can hopefully know what to expect when you get low level.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Just out of curiosity, you guys take an airplane that used to be or normally designed for passengers, right? And then it's been refitted to do this mission. So do you guys have more stringent lifetimes on the aircraft based on the conditions that you guys are flying in? I'm sure they were specially outfitted to a certain extent, but do you have to watch that a little bit?

Diego Calderoni: As far as we operate the aircraft, we're operating in the envelope that it was designed for. So, our airplane, the DC-10 is, we're actually operating almost 20% under the max gross weight of what it was built for. So that margin there allows us to fly that aircraft at slower speeds and still have a very good buffer to stall speed. So on a normal drop, we're still about 20 knots above the stall speed of the aircraft. So we have a very good performance envelope to work with. Getting into the other part of your question, we're operating it how it was designed. You know, we're not pulling Gs in it. We're trying to be as smooth as we can be on that airframe. But contractually we have an onboard load monitoring computer and within the aircraft are like strength gauges or strain gauges on the aircraft to monitor to monitor the wings, the elevator, the rudder. And all that data is getting collected and downloaded. And all the aircraft in the U.S. firefighting fleet contractually have to have the OLM data watching the aircraft. So, we have that system that monitors the stress on the aircraft and company in itself through the years of operation, we have our maintenance plans or programs that we follow that have been kind of catered more to the fire environment. And in some cases manufacturers have put a penalty on the aircraft. So on certain airframes, one landing, if it's being used in a fire mission, might count for up to five landings. So that increases the maintenance cycle on the aircraft.

Sandy Winnefeld: So while we're on the subject of the airplane, I'm going to insert one question in here. I know that the DC-10 is an older airplane. It's not being made anymore. The Air Force doesn't fly it anymore. And talking to the 10 Tanker folks, your number one problem right now is engines, high time engines. And it's getting harder and harder to get those. So I know that's probably not your job jar in the company, but something we all really need to pay attention to to get the bureaucracy out of the way. So you can get some of these spare engines that are laying around at Davis Monthan Air Force Base, right?

Diego Calderoni: Yeah, correct. I mean there are a lot of engines. What's good is there are a lot of engines out there now that the KC10 has been retired and we do manage to get motors and some of them, we'll get them to engine shops and get them rebuilt. But ultimately, there is a wealth of motors out there that could keep our mission going in that aircraft. So I'm hoping the powers that be help the process so that we can acquire–

Sandy Winnefeld: Government bureaucracy.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Seems like it would be self interest to help these guys be successful. 

Sandy Winnefeld: You would think.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: They're fighting fires on behalf of the country.

Diego Calderoni: Right.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: So shifting back to some of the experiences of doing this job, can you walk us through one of your most intense experiences on one of your flights? I'm sure you've had many, but does one come to mind? 

Diego Calderoni: When you do a lot of drops, they kind of all kind of come together.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: I totally get that.

Sandy Winnefeld: They're all scary.

Diego Calderoni: It's funny, there's one of the drops that I'll always remember was when we were at Mojave, it's like the Mojave Desert. It's outside of Southern California, kind of in between San Bernardino and Vegas. There's a beautiful desolate desert, but there's these Joshua trees everywhere. There's these gorgeous Joshua trees. And out there were, you know, people's homes. Whether it was a home or a little single wide trailer or there's these little ranches out there in the desert. And we showed up and right away I could tell the urgency in the lead playing pilot's voice in the sense that, “Hey, are you ready to go? We need to go right to work.” And I was like, “Okay, yeah. We're ready to go.” So we're in that process. We're slowing the plane down, getting it configured. And she's like, there's a wave of fire and it's running right for this house. And it was this little single wide compound out in the middle of the desert. But you know, and no matter what value, that's someone's home and what's really important to protect when you can protect it. Sometimes you don't get there in time or you know, sometimes they just burn. But in this scenario it was like with a visual when we turned base to final was this fire that probably had flame lengths of 60 ft to 80 ft high. And it looked like it was moving at about or it might have been moving at 15, 20 miles per hour and it's going straight to this person's home. And we just happened to be there at the perfect time, the perfect placement where when we drop retardant, we put retardant between that house and fire at the most perfect time, three or four seconds later, the house just would have been engulfed in flames. And so those kinds of moments, they're not like hair raising scary moments, but it's just like being there at the right place at the right time. And we saved someone's house. You don't get that a lot, but on that day it felt pretty rewarding. And 'll never forget the sight of just like a wall of fire just race into someone's house. And not to mention, we're not close. We weren't close. To get to that fire was about a 40-minute flight. So we weren't close. It was just the right place, right time and we saved someone's house. And those drops feel good.

Sandy Winnefeld: It's especially good if you hear back from them and they go, “Hey, you saved my house.” 

Diego Calderoni: You may probably never hear it, but you know that you did what you did.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Is that a fast move? That seems like a very, very fast moving fire. Is that sort of typical or is that faster than normal or was there just a lot of wind there? I've never been out to the Mojave. I'm sure Sandy had.

Diego Calderoni: It was a lot of wind.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Yep, a lot of wind.

Diego Calderoni: It was, yeah. It was just a lot of wind. And the conditions were dry enough that it just carried fire and moved really fast.

Sandy Winnefeld: So. Crew. Let's talk about the crew for a second. You are flying out there in a DC-10 which would, I guess, normally would have a two-person crew, except on a long haul mission. Are you two people flying the airplane or do you have an engineer who's in the jet with you?

Diego Calderoni: We have an engineer. Yeah. A captain, first officer and a flight engineer.

Sandy Winnefeld: Sounds good. And, I guess there's crew dynamics that are the same between what you're doing in an airliner, but when you actually get into fighting the fire, I would imagine there's a cadence, there's formality, there are all kinds of crew resource management issues that are different in firefighting than there are with a normal sort of benign airline flight. Is there a difference there you can talk to?

Diego Calderoni: Sure, yeah. For one, as we approach the fire, we're all listening to the frequencies that have been assigned to that fire to build situational awareness on where the fire is, where the air tankers are working, where the ground personnel are making sure the ground personnel are clear of where we're going to be dropping. So we'll listen to all that. And then as we get on scene, the flight engineer is running through all our pre-drop checklists. They're making sure that we're getting set up for the drop, that the tank system is armed and operating correctly in our aircraft. The flight engineer operates the tank system so they'll set the coverage levels in which, you know, how fast the retardant is going to come out of the aircraft. But really, as we get over the fire and we're working with our lead plane, together as a crew, we're kind of gathering all the information and learning where that retardant needs to be. We'll work together in the sense that if there's helicopters on scene or other tankers, anyone in the airplane is calling out that traffic in sight and making it known. And before we go into the drop, the captain engages the first officer and the flight engineer on the clarity of the drop and where things are going to go and any kind of hazards that anyone else might see. And we kind of just come together on the same page before we go low level and we're kind of all in agreement and feels safe for the drop.

Sandy Winnefeld: So I would imagine among the risks that are out there, not only low altitude turbulence, fire, you know, wind, and all that is the risk of midair collision. It's not the wild west out there, I'm sure. You've got some sort of scheme, altitude separation or communications that keep you from hitting each other.

Diego Calderoni: Yeah. So what has evolved is known as the fire traffic area. So the fire traffic area is essentially a standardized process in arriving at the working area of the fire. So as aircraft are flying to the fire, the working area, we announce when we're 12 miles out and essentially get clearance to enter the working area. And when we get that clearance, we get an altimeter setting which puts everybody on the same altitude. We get our altitude in which we're going to enter the fire traffic area. So all the tankers enter at that altitude. We find out what altitude the helicopters are operating and perhaps what side of the fire they're operating. So we essentially get a very quick brief and clearance into this working area. And as we're entering that working area, if other tankers are inbound, then we'll know to look for them in that direction. And it almost will actually kind of act like we'll use the frequency in some cases as a unicom. So it's like if we see another tanker, we just announce, “Hey, tanker 102910, I have you in sight.” At that point, we've communicated. We know we see each other. And then we maintain our spacing.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: So, who's your air traffic controller? Is it somebody managing the fire on the ground or is it the normal air traffic control system that everybody uses?

Diego Calderoni: That's the individual that I mentioned, the Air Tactical Group supervisor. That's the wildland firefighter flying in an aerial platform at roughly 2,500 ft above the fire. So they'll be on top and they'll essentially create a stack of traffic to have people come in and out and deconflict with each other.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: That's something people don't think about, right? Just the deconfliction of the air traffic in an environment like that where everything's changing and everything's challenging.

Sandy Winnefeld: Yeah. And it's dynamic. So hopefully you guys will be flying these aircraft for a long time if you can get enough engines. But is there anything new technologically coming down the line or new types of airplanes that are being brought into this service? Or are we kind of in a business where they get whatever they can and throw it against the fire?

Diego Calderoni: I mean, we're still an environment where, you know, a lot of different aircraft and platforms are being considered. So, I mean, right now, one company is using 737s and they're going from, I believe, 300 to 700. Another company is exploring the Airbus, an Airbus the 319. I know our company is looking at something after the DC-10 and it'll be in the large carrying capacity. So, the environment in which we work for, it's hard for companies to take that leap because it's a big financial investment and on the contracting side, there's not much guarantee for long term work. So it is a big leap for these companies to take that financial risk with not essentially very long contracts being out there. And that's just the way the system is built right now and funding. So yeah, I think there's a contractual side that plays into that. But there is a future for future aircraft and companies are still taking that risk.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: But what about equipping the existing aircraft with advanced sensor packages or other types of assistance to help with the precision of the mission? Is there anything like that going on or any kind of way to enhance the way the planes communicate with each other, to try and avoid each other, or any kind of enhancement on like crew resources for mapping, what's going on on the ground, or anything like that happening?

Diego Calderoni: There's a lot of intel ships that go out and map the fires to help build tactics and plans and know where it's going. But for an airplane specific technology to assist in drops or to assist in an aircraft talking to each other, I can't say that there's much going on. And part of that is because these are private companies. So, you know, it's not like we're operating on military budgets where they can just go crazy with.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Yeah. So you're counting on whoever the government agency is managing you guys to have all of the best technology and the intelligence gathering to map out the plan of attack and you guys come in and execute it. Is that kind of how it works?

Diego Calderoni: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Okay.

Sandy Winnefeld: So Diego, it sounds like you enjoy your job. What kind of advice would you have for somebody who's thinking about getting into this line of work?

Diego Calderoni: Well, I mean, it's all about just pursuing it. Within fire, you know, there's a lot of folks who are interested in it. And you know, it is a hard industry to get to, but it's not impossible to get to. So, you know, a lot of pilots that make their way into fire start out as air attack pilots. I would say out of all the vendors that supply aircraft to fire, the air attack community, I would say, has the most companies. So folks that can get into an air attack platform and start seeing fires from above, they get the chance of working with a federal employee, the ATGs, they get into the air attack world and you hang out. And we get a lot of downtime. I mean, what you see on the news is maybe 30% of what we do. The rest is we're. And so there's definitely an entry level kind of job and the air attack is one of them. For me, it was the smoke jumping, the smokejumper platform, flying smokejumpers, and there's companies that fly aircraft with just that intel that the IR cameras and the intelligence gathering information. So, find the job that gets you into fire and then meet everybody that you can and see where it goes.

Sandy Winnefeld: Sounds good. Well, I can only imagine that in those hours of boredom while you're at a base waiting for a mission, that it's punctuated by a lot of adrenaline when you're actually calling in and entering that fire area and picking your spot and then hitting the drop button. So it's pretty cool.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Amazing what you guys do.

Diego Calderoni: You know, it's funny. I mean, there's a big variety of pilots and background, right? And I won't say that we're adrenaline junkies, but I think the way I like to describe it is that there's an intense focus that happens on fires. And I'm sure you all know, Sandra being an astronaut, Sandy, a forward air controller. Those mission based jobs kind of in my mind, make you more present than you can ever be. There's an intense focus. You're very present. And that's kind of like where I feel that adrenaline comes in. Because being a former skydiver and BASE jumper, it's like those moments that make you present, I feel, get caught up in what adrenaline is. And in fire, I feel that's that intent, that's the drive is you have this big focus to get this mission done and then it’s a very rewarding mission because you're helping firefighters on the ground or you're saving homes.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Absolutely.

Sandy Winnefeld: Well, Diego, it's been great, great talking to you and many thanks to you and to your colleagues at 10 Tanker and other organizations that are doing this. It's been a terrible month in January for the fires in LA and in Southern California. And it's really good to know we got people like you out there on the front lines doing everything you can to help save lives, save property and you know have a good living while you're at it. So thank you.

Diego Calderoni: You're very welcome. And we're all happy to do it.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: That was aerial firefighting pilot Diego Calderoni. I'm Sandra Magnus.

Sandy Winnefeld: And I'm Sandy Winnefeld. Thanks again to Culligan for sponsoring this episode. Get exceptional water for exceptional performance. Learn more at culligan.com. 

Dr. Sandra Magnus: And please pass our podcast around to your friends and we'll see you soon with another fun episode of The Adrenaline Zone.