Joe Pistone aka Donnie Brasco: Inside the High-Stakes World of Undercover FBI Work

This episode is sponsored by Culligan Water

The Adrenaline Zone’s latest guest, former FBI agent Joseph Pistone, famously known as Donnie Brasco, lived a life most can only imagine, spending six years undercover infiltrating the Bonanno crime family in New York City. This dangerous mission, depicted in the acclaimed film Donnie Brasco, was more than just a job; it was a complete immersion into a world of organized crime. Pistone's success hinged on his ability to blend in seamlessly, a skill honed from a youth spent observing the "wise guys" in his Italian neighborhood in Paterson, New Jersey. Growing up in such an environment desensitized him to the criminal element, allowing him to interact with gangsters without fear or judgment. This unique background proved invaluable when he joined the FBI, leading him to volunteer for undercover assignments that others shied away from. His lack of intimidation and ability to focus on the task at hand, gathering evidence, made him an effective undercover operative.

Pistone's journey into law enforcement was almost preordained, despite a brief detour into Naval Intelligence after college. His early FBI career saw him tackling various cases, from bank robberies to gambling dens, further sharpening his street smarts. It was during these early assignments that he discovered his knack for undercover work, initially through casual conversations in gambling dens that escalated into more complex operations. Unlike the dramatized portrayals of undercover agents on television, Pistone emphasizes the importance of authenticity. He maintained his true personality, a key factor in his ability to gain the trust of those he was investigating. One of the most dangerous aspects of Pistone's work was establishing a credible cover identity, referred to as a "legend" in the FBI.

Before infiltrating the Bonanno family, Pistone underwent extensive training to become a believable jewel thief. This involved learning about diamonds, alarm systems, and safe-cracking, skills essential to his cover. He spent months frequenting Mafia hangouts, slowly building relationships without revealing his fabricated profession prematurely. Pistone's method was to listen and learn, absorbing the nuances of Mafia culture and operations. This period of observation was crucial, as any misstep could expose him, with potentially fatal consequences. The risks were immense, and Pistone had to constantly evaluate his actions, balancing the need to gather evidence with the imperative to stay alive.

Maintaining this double life was a 24/7 commitment, isolating Pistone from his family for extended periods. Unlike military deployments, where personnel have a support system, Pistone operated mostly alone, with infrequent and brief visits home. He carried no FBI identification, relying solely on his Donnie Brasco persona. This isolation, coupled with the constant threat of discovery, created a high-pressure environment. One slip-up, one inconsistency in his story, could have meant immediate exposure and death. Yet, Pistone managed to navigate this precarious existence, demonstrating remarkable resilience and adaptability. This total immersion allowed him to gather unparalleled intelligence on the Mafia's inner workings, ultimately contributing to the dismantling of a significant portion of their operations.

One of the most challenging aspects of deep undercover work is the need to remain truthful while maintaining a fabricated identity. Pistone's ability to recall and weave intricate lies, as demonstrated in the incident involving the boat "Left Hand," was crucial to his survival. This anecdote, where he concocted a story about meeting two women who connected them to the boat, showcases his quick thinking and ability to adapt under pressure. This quick thinking was essential to maintaining his cover, and Pistone relied on it often, particularly when questioned by suspicious associates. 

Despite the constant pressure and risk, Pistone found humor in the mundane routines of Mafia life. The daily life of a "wise guy," as described by Pistone, involved a monotonous routine of checking in with the captain, socializing at the club, and conducting illicit business late into the night. This lifestyle, though seemingly glamorous, was fraught with the constant fear of arrest or betrayal. Pistone's close relationship with his captain, Sonny Black, highlighted the surreal nature of his undercover life, where he would share coffee and lift weights with a man responsible for numerous murders. These interactions humanized the gangsters, revealing their personalities and quirks, but never diminishing the threat they posed. Despite the dangers, Pistone remained focused on his mission, gathering evidence that would eventually lead to numerous convictions.

The operation reached its climax when Pistone was on the verge of being inducted into the Bonanno family. This presented a moral dilemma, as he was tasked with killing a rival captain to prove his loyalty. The escalating violence within the family, coupled with the imminent threat to his life, forced the FBI to terminate the operation. Pistone's cover was blown, leading to the murders of several individuals who had vouched for him within the Mafia. His actions resulted in over 200 indictments and 100 convictions, significantly weakening the American Mafia. He received accolades for his work, including helping to establish a two-week undercover school and a safeguard unit for undercover agents and their families.

Pistone's story is a testament to the courage and dedication required for undercover work, highlighting the personal sacrifices and constant danger involved. His reflections on the experience offer valuable insights into the importance of authenticity, preparation, and quick thinking in high-stakes situations. It's essential to remain true to oneself, even when assuming a false identity, as any deviation can raise suspicion. While Hollywood often glamorizes undercover work, Pistone's account reveals the harsh realities and the profound impact such operations can have on both the individuals involved and the criminal organizations they target. His story is a stark reminder that behind the cinematic portrayals lies a world of real danger and sacrifice. These insights are applicable not only to law enforcement but to any field requiring deception and infiltration, underscoring the universal principles of trust and authenticity.

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Transcript

Joe Pistone: A lot of young undercovers, they actually watch too much television. They think, “Oh, the guy's a bad guy, so you’ve got to sit there and drink all night.” You have to be yourself. That's basically one of the mainstays of undercover. Do not change anything about your personality. Be who you are.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Joseph Dominic Pistone is a former FBI agent who infiltrated the Bonanno crime family in New York city during the 1970’s under the alias Donnie Brasco.

Sandy Winnefeld: Many of our listeners have probably seen the classic movie about Joe's experience named, oddly enough, Donnie Brasco, starring Al Pacino and Johnny Depp.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: We've talked to a lot of people about risk, but this may be close to or at the top of our list.

Sandy Winnefeld: It's about selling yourself as something you're not inside. A group known for, shall we say, a lack of forgiveness, knowing you could be terminated if your true identity is discovered, and managing near constant risk.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: And by the way, the evidence collected by Pistone led to hundreds of indictments and 247 convictions of mafia members.

Sandy Winnefeld: Speaking of managing risk, one place you don't want to take risk is with the water you drink.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: With Culligan's drinking water systems, you can get the ultra filtered water you need to fuel your high performance lifestyle right on tap. Learn more at culligan.com. 

Sandy Winnefeld: We caught up with Joe at an undisclosed location. So, Joe Pistone, welcome to The Adrenaline Zone. Thanks for being with us. Talk about adrenaline, you have a remarkable story.

Joe Pistone: Well, I appreciate the invite and it may be remarkable, but a lot of people do remarkable things..

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Well, we usually like to start sort of at the beginning. So if you could tell our listeners how you got started in law enforcement and what drew you to the FBI, that would be awesome.

Joe Pistone: You know I always had thoughts of being a police officer. And actually I was a senior in college and I took the exam from my local town that I grew up in, and I passed it. I got appointed. But then I realized I'd have to drop out of college to attend the rookie school. So I turned it down. And when I graduated college, I joined the Naval Intelligence. I went into Naval Intelligence. I always knew that at some point in time I was going to get into law enforcement. My first office actually was Philadelphia. I worked out of the Philadelphia Naval base. Now, what is it? NCIS, I guess now. But when I was in it, it was Naval Intelligence. And I worked very closely with the FBI. That's what got me my first taste of the FBI working with the agents out of the Philadelphia office. I worked with DEA also, so I took both exams. Well, the FBI has their own test and the DEA, it's the government– I forget what they call it. And I got called by the FBI first, so I went with the FBI. I mean I probably would have waited. If I did get called by the DEA first, I probably would have held off until I got confirmation with the FBI, either yay or nay. So that's basically how I started out.

Sandy Winnefeld: So you and my dad actually grew up in the same town. I don't know if we can say what that–

Joe Pistone: Yeah, you can. 

Sandy Winnefeld: Patterson, New Jersey, they raised smart cookies there. I could tell you that.

Joe Pistone: Well, I'll tell you, a lot of people come out of Pat. A lot of famous people. And I don't mean that I'm famous, but a lot of– 

Sandy Winnefeld: It's changed a lot since you were a kid, though, for sure.

Joe Pistone: Oh, my goodness. A lot.

Sandy Winnefeld: So you had a good background for a number of reasons, for undercover work. But how did you actually get into doing undercover work? Because that's a different animal.

Joe Pistone: Yeah. Well, I was basically a street guy, street kid because I grew up in an all Italian neighborhood and there were wise guys in the neighborhood. You knew who the wise guys were. It wasn't any big secret in the neighborhood that they were. You got to know them. You didn't get to see the treachery. You just got to see the nice cars and guys dressing nice and flashing money. And a kid from the neighborhood, they allow you around the social club. They didn't chase you because they knew you were a kid from the neighborhood. So I knew what street life was about. So when I went into the bureau, I worked basically everything. I worked bank robberies, fugitives, prostitution cases, gambling cases. I wasn't a babe in the woods when it came to the street. I could blend in with bad guys. What I mean by that, I wasn't intimidated by bad guys because I grew up around a lot of bad guys. That's how I got started. First, by going into gambling dens. Back then, we were big into interstate gambling. And I don't know how much gambling they do now as far as investigations, but it was big back then. I worked on a lot of interstate prostitution cases. I worked a lot of bank robberies and burglaries, a lot of bank burglaries, which was big in the south at the time, which was my first office. And I just felt comfortable talking to these guys once you arrest them, you interview them, interrogate them. And so that's basically how I got into the undercover was with the gambling. The gambling cases. I would go into gambling dens and gambling and strike up conversations with people, and then it just progressed from there. Got into buying stolen art.

Sandy Winnefeld: So was this on your initiative, or did the FBI ask you to do it? Or did you have to go to the FBI and say, “Look, I can do this”?

Joe Pistone: Back then, in my early years, the FBI really didn't have an undercover program. Guys did it on their own. You had a case or somebody in your office had a case, and they needed somebody to get closer to bad guys, or they had an informant that would bring somebody around to introduce them to the bad guys. And like I said, I knew how to conduct myself on the street. So I was asked, “Hey, you think you can do this?” And yeah, I can do that. I mean, growing up, I did some gambling in the neighborhood and stuff. So I knew about gambling, but that's how it got started. And then when big cases came up, as far as I was asked if I wanted to do them, and I did them, and knock on wood, I was successful. And I think the reason I was successful is because I didn't judge the bad guys. It wasn't like, “I'm going to get you SOB because you're a gangster,” or to me, it didn't make any difference. You're a gangster, that's your decision. It's not my decision. So I just went about the investigative work rather than having something against these guys, and I didn't. And that came across, too, I think, in getting accepted into different undercover roles because I didn't have this shield that you're a gangster and I'm not. You know what I'm saying? 

Sandy Winnefeld: Yeah. You just fit in better.

Joe Pistone: Yeah. And I think that's why I was successful in all my undercover cases, because my only mission was, hey, you're breaking a law. If I could get evidence to get you into the courtroom, that's fine. If I can't, that's fine, too. Like in my sixth year undercover operation, there were guys that I didn't even bother with because they might have been doing– I know there were a couple guys, they were married guys, they had kids, and they weren't doing anything bad. They may have been stealing something off a truck or something like that, but it wasn't anything that was really hurting anybody..

Sandy Winnefeld: You had to make some choices.

Joe Pistone: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: So I was going to ask how you train for going undercover, but it sounds like it's just natural the way you grew up. You had the right skill sets to blend in, and that was kind of your training.

Joe Pistone: Exactly, that's what it was. Because like I say, back then, we didn't really have an undercover program like they have now, which I am proud to say that I was one of the originators of it. We didn't have a program to look out for the welfare of the undercovers and their families, which I also am very proud of that I was one of the initiators of that program back then. It was just guys that– There were several of us, maybe throughout the whole country, maybe 25, 30 guys that did these little undercover jobs. And all these guys were guys that grew up in the cities.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: So with that natural street training, how long did it take to learn whatever it was that you needed to learn to infiltrate an actual crime family? Or were you really just kind of went for it?

Joe Pistone: An operation like that one, I had just come off a year and a half operation where I infiltrated an auto theft gang that was operating up and down the east coast. And what that entailed was you came to them and said, “Hey, I'm looking for a Mercedes Benz.” And, “Okay. What color do you want? What interior do you want?” 

Dr. Sandra Magnus: You're kidding. 

Joe Pistone: Yeah, and then they'd go out and go to the Mercedes Benz dealership at night and hook them. The one thing you have to do, though, is when you undertake an undercover operation, you have to know your legend. If you say you're a car thief, you better know how to steal cars. So what I did then when I was asked to infiltrate that, one of the agents had an informant that was a car thief. So he taught me how to steal cars, how to get underneath, disarm the alarm systems. He taught me how to steal cars.

Sandy Winnefeld: So I guess you don't have to worry about losing car keys. Have you ever lost your car keys? You just steal your own car?

Joe Pistone: Yeah. 

Sandy Winnefeld: So that brings to mind the biggest operation you did where the film came out. Came up with a. 

Joe Pistone: The six-year under–

Sandy Winnefeld: Yeah. The COVID story around Donnie Brasco. Tell us about that and how you got set up.

Joe Pistone: Well, what happened was I was assigned to the New York office. I came back from this year and a half operation and I had a supervisor who was a New Yorker. Another guy, although he was a graduate of Notre Dame, he was a street guy. He had the truck hijacking squad. And back then they're probably losing about, I don't know, seven, eight tractor trailer loads a day. Now I'm talking about high-end commodities like pharmaceuticals, lobsters. I mean, anything that was in the hundreds of thousands of dollars as far as the tractor was concerned, the load in the tractor. And he had an idea. Nobody had ever infiltrated the mob before and it was all controlled by the Mafia. I mean, there wasn't anything back in the day that happened in New York criminally that the mafia wasn't either involved in or directed and got a piece of. So the idea was to try to infiltrate defenses that were fencing the stolen goods. So again, you can't have a profession that's one of violence. It's against the government regulations. So we decided, well, how about a jewel thief? Good, because a jewel thief deals in stolen jewelry, deals with fences. So I went to school, I actually went to school and learned about diamonds and precious gems because that's the first thing that's going to trip you up when you're in conversation if you don't know what your background, what your legend is. So I went to school, learned about diamonds, precious gems, and then you have to back that up if you're a jewel thief. You got to know how to pick locks, you got to know about alarm systems, and you have to know about safes. So I was taught that by our people. And all of that probably took about maybe five, six months where I felt comfortable looking at a diamond or looking at a precious gem and picking locks, etc., etc.. 

And we did this operation without any contacts. And what I mean by that is everything was done as a regular person would. I had a driver's license already that I just went and got. I just went and I had a birth certificate that was provided for me. I had all the papers that the bureau made. We didn't count on any outside contacts to help us. Then I went, I rented my own apartment, bought a car, all under the name Donnie Brasco. And what we did was we had certain bars and restaurants targeted that we knew that these individuals hung out in. And I would just go out every night, and it's a seven-day a week job, and I just go to these different places every night and go in and grab something to eat. Because you don't walk into places that you know that the mob hangs out in, or bad guys, walk in and tell them that you're a jewel thief, and you want to do business with them. You got to get into some kind of conversation with them. Also what you have to know is you have to know who you're targeting. You have to know your enemy. I'm sure you guys know the art of war. Know your enemy, right?

Again, I had an advantage because I knew about the mob. I knew how the mob operated. You kept your mouth shut. You just listened. And all of the ABCs about the mafia. And it took me about probably six months before anybody would even talk to me. I just hit all these places every night, different places. And then finally I got into conversation with a bartender and it led to him– Actually, what happened was, is that one of the rules– The mafia has certain rules. Some will get you killed and some won't. One of the rules is you have to dress nice. They want you to be neat at all times. They don't like long hair, they don't like beards, mustaches. And at the time, I had a thick mustache. I'm getting ahead of it. But when I did finally infiltrate, they told me, look, Donnie, you got to shave that mustache off. So I shaved it off, but, some of the things that will get you killed is that one of the rules is you don't mess around with a made guy. Now, a made guy is somebody that's been officially inducted into a mafia family, and there's several mafia families. New York is the biggest, they have five. And to be inducted, you have to be white male and Italian. The mafia is not an equal opportunity employer. You have to be a white male and Italian.

Sandy Winnefeld: And you happen to fit that.

Joe Pistone: Yeah, I fit that role. But one of the rules that'll get you killed is you don't fool around with a made guy. And again, a made guy is somebody that's been officially inducted into a family. You don't fool around with his wife, girlfriend, or daughter. That'll get you killed. So I used to go to this one place. I always sat at the bar in any of these places. And I'm not a drinker. My drinking limit is a half a bottle of beer or a glass of red wine. I don't drink any more than that. And I maintained that. I think that's another reason I was successful, because I didn't try to be like these guys. A lot of young undercovers, actually they watch too much television. They think, oh, the guy's a bad guy, so you got to sit there and drink all night. You have to be yourself. That's basically one of the main stays of undercover. Do not change anything about your personality. Be who you are. And I worked in bars. My dad had bars. So I bartended since I was able to, but I never became a drinker. I just, like I say, it's a half a bottle of beer. Even to this day, if I have a bottle of beer, I can only drink half of it. And maybe, if I have a glass of wine, it's one glass of wine. That's it.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: So if I may, I'm wrestling with something here. You said you went out every night to all these different bars, and so that sounds like a full time, 24/7 job. How did that work with taking breaks or visiting your family? Or did you just not do that?

Joe Pistone: You just don't do it. You don't do it. My family lived across the country, actually. You have your own apartment. When you're in a deep cover situation, the only identification you have is your fake identification. You don't have your FBI credentials, your FBI badge. You don't carry a gun. You just have your Donnie Brasco driver's license and whatever you have under Donnie Brasco, that's it.

Sandy Winnefeld: And your wits.

Joe Pistone: Yeah.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: So for six years, you were away from your family in this deep–

Joe Pistone: Yeah. Well, I'd get home every maybe once every seven, eight months for, overnight, maybe two nights.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: That's hard.

Joe Pistone: Yeah. But hey, it's no harder than being in the military, you know? 

Sandy Winnefeld: Yeah. Being deployed.

Joe Pistone: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. The only difference is here, when you're in the military, you have no choice. Here, it's a voluntary assignment. Being an undercover agent is voluntary. You volunteer., They can't tell you you got to take it. You got to take an undercover assignment in the FBI anyway. I don't know about other agencies.

Sandy Winnefeld: You live to embrace risk in the air, on the slopes, and anywhere your determination takes you. But when it comes to the drinking water that fuels your adventures, you're not looking to take chances. 

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Sandy Winnefeld: Get started by scheduling your free water test culligan.com. How did you go about– This was a show about risk, and obviously you took an enormous amount of risk. I cannot imagine how that had to weigh on you. But how did you evaluate what risks were worth taking versus something that could blow your cover or endanger your life? Constant. Constant thinking. Constant. Constant.

Joe Pistone: Yeah, just constant– Another thing, too, you can't tell too many lies because you're going to get caught. So that's why you try to stay as close to the truth as possible. Of course, your background, you try to stay close to what you know. And again, a lot of times you just put it out of your mind. It's hard to explain, but to me, it was just a job. It was another form of conducting an investigation. And once I got embedded with these guys– And I really had no surveillance in New York. I was by myself. Because you're dealing in New York. It's hard to surveil. I mean, I had surveillance a couple times when I knew I was going to be in a conversation that had to be recorded, so I wore a transmitter so that it could be recorded. But probably 98% of the time, I was out there by myself.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Do you think it would be harder to get away with that now with all of the information available on everybody, everywhere?

Joe Pistone:  Yeah, it could be done. But the only thing that's changed about undercover is exactly what you said. The Internet. Somebody can type in Donnie Brasco, and you have to come up with something. Like back before the Internet became really prevalent, because I was also in the unit that provided– Once I got out of my undercover roles that provided legends to agents. I mean, back then, we can guarantee you like 98% that this thing is going to hold. In fact, we backstopped the guy from birth right through the day that he applied to a police academy to become a policeman because we had information that a certain district in this one police department was ripping off people and robbing them and etc., and this guy passed the background. Now it's tough, you can't provide that 98% because of the Internet. So it's kind of hard as far as a full foolproof legend. But back when I started, it was pretty straightforward. There are certain things, like you never said you did time in the penitentiary because they could check that. I mean, that's easy. Well, where did you do time with? And you couldn't talk about doing time in the penitentiary. So you did 30 days in the county jail. I mean, that's what was on my record, 15 days in a county jail, and nobody could check that.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: So along those lines then, you comment about staying in your character and trying to stay truthful as much as possible. Can you describe a challenging moment where you had to stay in character despite intense pressure? Or where you're having to watch every word because you're kind of on the edge of that line?

Joe Pistone: Yeah, you have to, because there were several occasions. Like one occasion was, I don't know if you guys are old enough, but do you remember the APP scam investigation where we had a big undercover operation going against politicians? And the FBI had a boat down in Fort Lauderdale, and they had taken the politicians out on this boat. And the boat captain actually was an FBI agent who had all his license and he was– So we used to go down to Florida a lot. When I say we, I'm talking about once I infiltrated these guys, the bad guys, they like to go out fishing. So I made arrangements to go out in this APP scam boat, which name of it was Left Hand, and we go out. And first of all, I was told that the operation isn't going to surface. We're going to go as long as we could go. Well, after about a month, month and a half, the press found out about the APP scam operation, and they wouldn't hold the story. The bureau went to them and they wouldn't hold the story. And they even told him, look, we got other undercover operations, so it came out. And the picture of the boat, I think it was on Newsweek. The magazine, Newsweek. And I'm with one of the bad guys who became my mafia partner, Ruggerio, and his name was Lefty. So we're on an airplane. And back then, they had magazines on airplanes. And he picks up this magazine and he sees the boat, and he said, “You recognize this boat?” I said, “No, I don't recognize the boat.” And he said, “We were on that boat.” I said, “No, we weren't. How could we be on that boat?” He said, “Donnie, don't tell me we weren't on that boat.” He said, “What's the name of that boat?” And it says Left Hand. And he said, “What's my name?” I said, “Lefty.” He said, “We were on that boat. How did you get us on that boat?” So I went into this whole story. I said, “Don't you remember? We were in San Diego, and we were having dinner, and there were these two ladies having dinner at the next table, and you offered to buy their dinners. And we start talking to them, and the one says, ‘Hey, you guys go to Miami at all?’”And I went into the whole, “Yeah, we go down to Miami.” And she says, “Well, my brother has a boat in Fort Lauderdale. If you guys ever want to go, here's his name and number, call him and just mention my name and he'll take you out.” He bought it. But did he buy it 100%? Well, it went on for four more years, so I guess he did.” 

Sandy Winnefeld: I guess so.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Wow. That's creative on the spot.

Sandy Winnefeld: A little anchor bias there. Confirmation bias. So you wrote a book titled the Way of the Wise Guys. So for our listeners, if you want to learn more about this, definitely get that book. But there are a lot of interesting chapter names in that book. So without spoiling the whole thing, I thought one of them was really cool. It was called A Typical Day in the Life of a Wise Guy. Can you kind of walk us through that?

Joe Pistone: Well, what we would do, you wake up in the morning and whatever crew you're with– And the families are broken down into crews, and there's a captain. In the mafia, the structure is not unlike the military or a police force because you have a boss, then you have an underboss, and then you have caporogimos or captains, and then under the captains are the soldiers. Now, all these guys have been officially inducted into that family. And then you have associates. And associates are individuals who are waiting to get inducted. In other words, they're trying to prove that they're good earners, they have respect for the family. But the associates can also be non-Italians, as long as they're doing something for the family, bringing in money, or have it in with politicians or judges or law enforcement. So you do get up in the morning, you have to go down and check in with your captain. You hang around the social club, you have a nice lunch. Generally they like Chinese food, you play cards then you go home, you come out, you meet back up someplace, maybe 9:00, 10:00 at night, and you go out hanging out if you don't have any scores to do, any robberies to do or whatever, they just go out. You know what they say, bouncing around. You go to different clubs and conduct business, whatever illegal businesses that you're involved in. And you might get home at, 3:00, 4:00in the morning, then you start over again the next day.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: That sounds rather monotonous.

Joe Pistone: Well, actually it is. I used to tell you a funny story. I became very close with my captain and actually he was one of the street bosses of the family because the real boss was in jail. So my captain was a pretty high up there, respected guy in the Bonanno family. I was with the Bonanno family. And my apartment was uptown. I had an apartment at 92nd and 3rd Ave. and this was in Brooklyn. And if I didn't feel like going home, I'd stay in his apartment and I'd sleep on his couch and we'd get up in the morning. And here's the funny part. This guy, he was a powerful guy in the mafia, in the Bonanno family. He'd go across the street to the bakery and get us coffee and a hard rolling butter. If you're from New York, hard-rolling butter and a coffee. And then he'd come back and then we lift weights. He had weights in his apartment, we lifted weights in his apartment, hang out. And then his social club was downstairs. He had pigeons. We go up and feed his pigeons on a roof. And then we go down to the social downstairs, maybe about 12:00, 12:30 and start over again. And that's seven days a week. I mean, it's a grind. And some of these guys aren't dummies. Some of these guys put their brains to legitimate businesses. They'd be millionaires without the fright of going to jail. I mean, every day it's like, is today the day I go to jail? Is today the day I get arrested? Or is it today that I get killed?

Dr. Sandra Magnus: That's a horrible way to live.

Joe Pistone: That's what they wake up to every morning.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Yeah. Any other humorous moments that you were able to have during all of this undercover work or was it just monotony, monotony, monotony?

Joe Pistone: No, there's some humor. I mean, that's another thing, too, is that you got to realize you're dealing with human beings. So some of them are funny. Some of them don't mean to be funny, but they are. You know what I mean? Everybody has a personality, and the same thing with these guys. And all of them are killers. Everybody that I was hanging with had killed people, but you're talking to them, and you would never know it.But some of them are just miserable. But there are a lot of miserable, legitimate people, too. You know what I mean? So they're just humans. But I don't know, I guess it's the idea of getting over society. But it's a crazy life. It's a crazy life.

Sandy Winnefeld: So speaking of killing people, tell our listeners how it all ended in real life. I mean, you were a victim of your own success in a way, right?

Joe Pistone: Yeah, actuallyI had infiltrated the Bonanno family so deeply and thoroughly that I was actually going to be inducted into the family. I was going–

Sandy Winnefeld: Which is a problem.

Joe Pistone: Yeah. But what happened was that there was a rift within the family, because, like I said, they had killed one boss, and the other boss that got appointed was in jail. So as I said, Sonny Black, who was my captain, was the acting street boss of the family. But there were three individuals, three other captains that were not aligned with the boss that was in jail. So there was a rift going on between these three captains and the rest of the family, and they had what they called a sit down. And what that is, is a meeting. And when these three captains showed up at this appointment, Sonny Black and his guys, they killed these three individuals. So now we had a shooting war. And I was given a contract to kill one guy that didn't show, so I was supposed to kill him. I never found him. The bureau didn't find him. So that's basically why we shut it down, because of the war going on.

Sandy Winnefeld: And the expectation that you would have to do something.

Joe Pistone: Well, if I found that guy. It was a dicey situation because when you're given a contract by your captain to kill somebody, you don't refuse it, because if you refuse it, then you're going to get killed too. Now, the deal was, if I found them and there weren't any other bad guys around, I would call my contact in the FBI and say, “Hey, Bruno's at such and such a place,” and they would arrest him.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Yeah, make him disappear.

Joe Pistone: Make him disappear and set the stage for a hit. And if they get him, we do the same thing. But if I found them and the other gangsters were with me, it would have been a tough decision because I think Bruno would have had to get killed because I wasn't going to get killed for a gangster. And that's what a lot of people don't realize, the decisions you have to make. If after five and a half years, I was with the Columbos first, and then I was with five and a half years with the Bonannos, I'm going to say to them, “Hey, guys. I'm really an FBI agent.” And they're going to have to say, “Yeah, Donnie.” So my mindset was he's going and then I'll deal with the government later on because there's no trials. You know what I mean? And a lot of guys don't understand that.

Sandy Winnefeld: That's what we tell our special operations people. If you're going in to get a terrorist, your job is not to go in and get yourself killed. This terrorist is not worth it.

Joe Pistone: Exactly.

Sandy Winnefeld: Keep yourself alive. Yeah, you're too important.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: What happened after that undercover six year try? When you emerged from that, was that the end of your FBI career?

Joe Pistone: No, actually, it wasn't. Yeah, I testified in– Actually, as long as the undercover operation was that's how long I testified. I testified for six years after that, too. 

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Wow. 

Joe Pistone: All told, I think I was in 22 trials.

Sandy Winnefeld: You were probably getting some pretty ugly looks from the defendants.

Joe Pistone: Yeah. And then I was assigned to Quantico in the undercover unit at Quantico. What happened was when we decided to take the operation down, the FBI actually went to Sonny Black and said, “Hey, this guy is Donnie Brasco's. He’s really an undercover FBI agent.” Well, they didn't believe it. So they thought that the FBI had kidnapped me and was brainwashing me and trying to turn me into an informant.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Oh, my gosh.

Joe Pistone: And then they finally, when some of the indictments came, started to come out, then the defense attorneys, they said, “Hey, this guy's really an undercover agent.” Well, they killed the guy, the Colombo guy that I was with in the beginning. They killed Sonny Black and they killed a guy by the name of Tony Mirror, who actually brought me into the Bonanno crime family. And they put a $500,000 contract down on me and sent guys all over the country in different places that I was with them.

Sandy Winnefeld: So all that risk taking, Joe. All that risk taking, 200 indictments, 100 convictions. And is it true that for that you got like a $500,000 bonus?

Joe Pistone: Yeah, but I don't know where that– We actually had 247 convictions. I don’t know–

Sandy Winnefeld: So much for the Internet.

Joe Pistone: Yeah, somebody put that on the Internet. And I don't know where the hell that came from, but we actually–

Sandy Winnefeld: That's amazing.

Joe Pistone: In all the trials, yeah. And like I said, the thing that I'm really proud of that operation is that we got a two-week undercover school out of it. We're able to do that. Was able to get what we call a safeguard unit to look out for the wellbeing of the undercovers and their families. They were two good things that– Aside from the convictions. And that was the wheel that really got the government, when I say the government, the bureau, you're going after the hierarchy of the mafia. Because after that, we convicted every mafia boss in New York City. The boss of every family, we convicted in New York City. And even the ones that took their place, we convicted them. And now everybody starts becoming informants. And today the American mafia, it's just another organized crime group.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: So is it harder though because of the shock at what you were able to accomplish? Is it harder for people to penetrate now because they're way more paranoid?

Joe Pistone: Yeah, it is. There hasn't been any deep cover penetrations. And they're really not doing those. They have long term operations, but it's operations where they have businesses going. They don't have too many operations where the undercover is out there by himself running with the bad guys on it on a 365-day operation. In my intro, it was cold. I didn't have anybody introduce me. I didn't have an informant introduce me or anything. And people don't want to do it either. I mean, I can't blame them. They don't want to give up their families and move away from their families.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Yeah, that's hard.

Joe Pistone: They don't mind doing short term, but nobody wants to do long term anymore.

Sandy Winnefeld: So, Joe, let's have a little fun in the time we have left. Let's turn to the film Donnie Brasco. I'm assuming you spent time with Johnny Depp.

Joe Pistone: Yeah, I spent time.

Sandy Winnefeld: He wanted to portray you. How was that? 

Joe Pistone: Well, I don't know what you read about him, but Johnny Depp is a great guy. And back then to me as a kid. Even though–

Sandy Winnefeld: I thought he did a fantastic job as an actor, but I don’t–

Joe Pistone: He did a great job. Back then he was, I guess, 30 years old and he's a wonderful person. We're still good friends today. Friends with his father, friends with his sister. I keep in contact with him. I can tell you some great stories about him that he would never publicize as far as him helping people and stuff. He lives in a crazy world, I mean, Hollywood. 

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Says the guy who lived with the mob for six years.

Joe Pistone: Well, let me tell you something. I'd rather live with the mob than live with some of these people in Hollywood, believe me. Somebody's studio heads, you know.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Yeah.

Sandy Winnefeld: So I got to ask you, there's an iconic scene in this movie where Donnie explains to you that, forget about it has multiple meetings, right?

Joe Pistone: Yeah.

Sandy Winnefeld: Was that a real conversation you had or was it kind of–

Joe Pistone: That was Hollywood. But forget about it was a word that they always used. And Paul Attanagio, the writer, he played with it and that's when he came up with that scene.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: So having lived through this and they made a movie, of course, from your experience, what about other films like Wise Guys? Do you have any other movies that you think capture the essence of what you lived through?

Joe Pistone: What's the one with Ray Liotta? 

Sandy Winnefeld: That was Wise Guys.

Joe Pistone:

Yeah, that was pretty much on, because it shows the treachery, how these guys are jealous of each other and the treachery that goes on. There's a lot of backstabbing because I'm making more money than you. You're closer to the boss than I am. There's a lot of jealousy. 

Sandy Winnefeld: I guess, though, and that happens in a lot of jobs, but I in that world, it can be fatal.

Joe Pistone: Yeah, in that world, it can be, because, look, I had this guy that brought me into the Bonanno family and tried to have me killed three times, because he was jealous. He went to jail, got out of jail. I was close now with Sonny Black and left to Ruggerio and he thought I was making a ton of money, and he should be making that money. So, he called what they have sit downs. And you bring, for lack of a better word, your attorney. And, he's not an attorney and he brings his people.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: Advocate. 

Joe Pistone: Yeah. And, luckily I had Sonny Black and he won a three sit. If you lose that type of sit down, because one of the things is you don't steal money from a family and that's what he alleged, they would have killed me right there. But Sonny won him, so, here I am.

Sandy Winnefeld: Anxious moments. We're pretty much out of time, but let me tell you something, what a fantastic discussion. I got so much respect for what you had to do to get done.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: I’m in awe.

Sandy Winnefeld: And, frankly, people are always saying thank you for your service and that kind of thing, but you're kind of an unsung hero. People like you who spend months and months and months away from your family take enormous amounts of risk to try to keep our nation safe from people who are doing bad things. So thank you.

Joe Pistone: Well, yes, thank you. And thank you guys for what you did.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: It's a super amazing story.

Joe Pistone: Thank you.

Dr. Sandra Magnus: That was former FBI undercover agent and inspiration for the film, Donnie Brasco. Joe Pistone. I'm Sandra Magnus.

Sandy Winnefeld: And I'm Sandy Winnefeld. Thanks again to Culligan for sponsoring this episode. Get exceptional water for exceptional performance. Learn more at culligan.com. 

Dr. Sandra Magnus: And please pass our podcast around to your friends. And we'll see you soon for another fun episode of The Adrenaline Zone.