Perseverance, Competitiveness, and Character: The Future of Duke Basketball with Coach Jon Scheyer
Jon Scheyer, former professional player and newly anointed head coach at Duke, joins the conversation with Sandra and Sandy today. He provides us with a sneak peak into the world of collegiate basketball, Coach K’s diligent and personal prep work, and his vision for the storied Duke basketball program. As long as he can remember, Scheyer has been competitive; maybe too much so, if you ask his mother. So it’s no surprise that he went on to have an illustrious career.
From record breaking high school player and Duke recruit to international professional player and now the youngest head coach in Division 1, Scheyer attributes his success to his strong competitive edge. He’s also one of the lucky few who had the chance to learn from and work with living legend, Mike Krzyzewski. Believing in the power of preparation, Coach K gave his all to the Duke program, and Coach Scheyer hopes to now do the same. At the end of the day though, following in the big footsteps of Coach Mike Krzyzewski is no light task. Scheyer’s response to the critics and online hate? He says he has a short memory. He simply moves on and gets to work - a model approach that will benefit his players and program immensely for years to come.
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Transcript:
Dr. Sandra Magnus: It lies somewhere between the pit of your stomach, your racing heart, and your brain, somehow trying to keep it all together. That's an area we call The Adrenaline Zone.
I'm retired astronaut, Dr. Sandra Magnus.
Sandy Winnefeld: And I'm retired Navy fighter pilot, Admiral Sandy Winnefeld. We're two adrenaline junkies who love spending time with people who are really passionate about pushing their boundaries as far as possible.
When legendary Duke basketball coach, Mike Krzyzewski retired this year, he left in his wake a legacy of success and championships, statistics and a number of his players who've graduated to the NBA.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: His longtime assistant Jon Scheyer inherited the program. He's not only the youngest coach in Division One, which puts him in the spotlight, but he's had his work cut out for him in his first few months, backfilling a raft of departing talent and molding Duke's long standing program to his vision.
Sandy Winnefeld: So, who is Jon Scheyer? Well, we're going to find out in a fun interview.
But first, many thanks to our sponsor for this episode, Dunkin'. Slow steeped, ultra-smooth Dunkin' Cold Brew should be at the top of any adrenaline seeker's checklist.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: We caught up with coach Scheyer just before he headed out on the road for another recruiting trip.
Sandy Winnefeld: So, Jon Scheyer, welcome to The Adrenaline Zone, and congrats on your new baby, and on your new job.
Jon Scheyer: Thank you so much. It's been a busy year, but an exciting time. So, thanks for having me on. I’m looking forward to talking with both you, Sandy and Sandra.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: We have a lot of ground to cover. But let's start with your own playing career. It all started in Illinois, where actually you're still one of the most famous players in the state in high school basketball history. And I was doing a little bit of research and I saw the story about your determination to hit free throws. Do you know the story I'm talking about?
Jon Scheyer: I was always determined to hit free throws. Hopefully, there's more than one. But yeah, ever since I was a young kid, anytime I’d go into a gym, one, free throws, they're free for a reason, so I always get angry anytime I miss one during a game. But anytime leaving the gym, sometimes I'd go with my dad, sometimes I'd be a coach, and I'd pick a number that I had to hit. And if I was making 40, before I left the gym, in a row, and I hit 38, I'd start over until I got 40. It didn't matter how long it took.
We were talking a little bit before this about perseverance. When it came to free throws or the work on the court, that never was an issue for me. So, I’m very proud. I think I'm third or fourth all time at Duke and one of the leaders in Illinois history. Free throws are a lot about repetition and being in that moment so I was able to always do a good job of that.
Sandy Winnefeld: That's awesome. Now you're a freshman in high school, you're offered a scholarship by Marquette as a freshman, which really wasn't as common back then as it is now, right? So, that had to be kind of an adrenaline-producing experience. How did that come down?
Jon Scheyer: It was. Well, it actually started the summer going into my freshman year. I had not even taken one class yet and I went to Marquette's camp. Tom Crean was there at the time, he was the head coach, and he said, 'I want you to play two-on-two at my camp,' and I walked in and Dwayne Wade, he was one of current players in Marquette.
And so, I played two-on-two, as a not even entering high school yet, with another one of the players against Dwayne Wade, and he just beat the crap out of me. It was an interesting meeting, but I was not even close to his level. For whatever reason afterwards, Tom Crean offered me a scholarship right away. I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that I didn't back down, although I may not have beat him or scored against him, the competitiveness was always there.
And so, it was a huge moment in my life because I was just thinking about playing Varsity basketball and what I had to do there – all of a sudden, you have got an opportunity to play college. It just changes your perspective in a big way.
Sandy Winnefeld: Wow! How tall were you back then?
Jon Scheyer: Yeah, I was actually about 6'4” for going into high school. I was really big in size. I was lucky when I was young, my coach, typically they make somebody like me who's taller, be just a big man. I had a coach, who saw that I had the potential for more.
And so, I was the biggest guy on the floor, bringing the ball up, even when I was young, which really, I'm so thankful for Scott Lizkin, my coach when I was younger helping me with that.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: So, you went into high school and you had a high school game in which you scored 52 points, including an amazing 21 points in 75 seconds. And so, how did that feel? Because that's sort of, I think, probably reinforced that, ‘Hey, maybe I could go do something with this after high school.’
Jon Scheyer: Yeah! I'd be curious if either of you have had a similar experience in the sense that I'm talking about, well shoot, this is when I was 18 years old. And now this is 16, almost 17 years later, and people still ask me about a game. And the crazy part is, it was the most heartbreaking loss of my high school career. You know, we had won 35 games in a row and we were number one in state that year, and we're playing in the Proviso West Tournament, the holiday tournament, which was, in Illinois, the most historic tournament ever, and I wanted to win it.
So, we're playing in the second round, and I scored 21 in the last 1:10, 1:15, but we lost the game, we caught up to two, three times. And so, I was heartbroken after the game. I was crying my eyes out. And then, the headline in the paper the next morning was, scoring 21 in 75 seconds. So, I was proud of the effort but really disappointed with the outcome. I'm sure you can relate to that in a lot of different areas. But for me, that's what I was feeling at that moment.
Sandy Winnefeld: I think sometimes you're so focused on the big picture that you just kind of lose sight of something remarkable that you've just done, and I'm sure that's how it was for you. You probably didn't even know you'd scored 21 points until you read the paper the next day.
Jon Scheyer: That's right. No, yeah. I just knew it wasn't enough in that moment.
Sandy Winnefeld: So, you didn't go to Marquette you went to Duke, you were a two-time team captain. Amazing stats, the only player in Duke history to record 2000 points, 500 rebounds, 400 assists, 250 3-pointers, and 200 steals in your career. More importantly, you won the National Championship in 2010.
So, I want to hear from you about the ending of the title game against Butler. What was like walking the ball up the court with a minute left in that game, a make-or-break moment where all of your life's passions, all of your hard work, is now hitting a crucible, a critical point? What was that like?
Jon Scheyer: I don't know if anybody's really asked me that question in that way. A lot of people like to talk about the last shot that Gordon Hayward took, but for me, bringing the ball up the floor, we are up by 5 with a little under two minutes to go, and we missed two shots, Butler scored twice, so all of a sudden we're up by one, like you said, it's under a minute to go on and I’m walking the ball in the court, literally, I feel 70,000 people stand to their feet around me. And they're cheering mostly for Buttler. I mean, we’re in Indianapolis.
I took a split second and I was focused on the game. But I was just like, 'How cool is this?' You know, and this is the moment you dream about being in. I wasn't afraid. I'll never forget it the rest of my life. And we called the timeout, we had great execution down the stretch to pull off the win.
But that moment, that's why you make 40 free throws so don’t cheat it by making only 38. And in those moments, you want to do everything you can where you know that the preparation you put in – I always felt the preparation leads to confidence. And I felt that in that moment.
Sandy Winnefeld: Did you think that it was a good thing they called the timeout just because you had to get your mind back in the game after thinking this is such a cool moment, or was it all part of the win?
Jon Scheyer: Not because my head was in the clouds thinking about what a cool moment this was but we had to get organized. There's a tonne of momentum going for them. Our two frontcourt players had four fouls.
So, we were going through some adversity at that moment in trying to hang on and then there, and we got a great shot, actually, we missed it. And then, our defense, the last two possessions to win the game were textbook and that comes from years of practicing, playing together, competing every day. So, the time out, I think, was really important.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: You know, The Adrenaline Zone is a podcast about people who take risks, right? And there's lots of risks around us every day in life and sports actually have an aspect of risk to them and you had a promising NBA career, but basketball is a physical sport, and you had an eye injury that really derailed things.
So, after having that dream of continuing on with your career, how did you recover physically and emotionally from that?
Jon Scheyer: Yeah, it knocked me back because one of the things I've always prided myself on as a player and I do now as a coach is showing up every day. I never missed a practice in high school. I never missed a practice at Duke. I never missed a game in high school or Duke.
And so, in my second game professionally, this injury knocked me out. When I was supposed to be playing in the NBA Summer League with the Miami Heat, I was in the hospital in Chicago, getting heavy doses of steroids trying to get my eyesight back.
And so, it really knocked me back but I was very determined to still make it to the NBA. It was an uphill climb, but I was proud. Just about 6 weeks later, I went to training camp with the Los Angeles Clippers. And I was released after about three and a half weeks. But it was just for me, it was just, “No, I'm not stopping.”
And I ended up playing for 3 years professionally. I’m very proud of that. And then, I felt I was ready. I always wanted to be a coach. I wanted to be a young head coach and I felt it was time to come back to Duke shortly after. As I was getting to that point in my professional career, I did feel like the NBA was in sight for me.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: So, after the injury, you adjusted by wearing goggles to protect your eyes. But do you feel like that experience had some effect on how you approached the game or how you played the game?
Jon Scheyer: Yeah, I think it just put it in perspective. I say it's one of those things you never think about. We don't wake up in the morning, or at least I don't and say I'm thankful for the vision that I have. It's not something you go into a game and you're thinking about it.
It was just a reminder for me that you don't know what happens. You don't know. So, to be in the moment, and take advantage of every opportunity you can is really what I've drawn from that.
And so, like still to this day, I play just once in a while to get a workout in. I'll play with our coaches or managers and I love it. Like, I cherish every moment I can be on the floor. It's the same thing as a coach. I don't take those things for granted at all.
Sandy Winnefeld: So much of your professional career was actually playing overseas, right? We think of international sports, probably the leading one being soccer that's the most common sport. But basketball is maybe a close second. It's played all over the world.
How did it feel playing in front of audiences that didn't even speak the same language you did? And maybe with teammates the same way, right?
Jon Scheyer: Yeah, it was an experience. I just think, for me, I grew so much as a man, as a person playing over there, because you're making – I have relationships still to this day from France, from Spain, Greece, Israel, and it makes you more well rounded.
Basketball is a funny sport because you have the least amount of players in the NBA. They have a little bit more now but you have really about 400 to 500 players that are currently in the NBA. There are more than 500 really good basketball players in the world. And that's why you mentioned, Sandy, in Europe, there's high-level basketball. There are guys over there that could play in the NBA, but it's a small margin of error.
You look at baseball, football, and some of these sports, you have thousands of players in the professional sports league over here. So, I learned very quickly, you think you're better than what you are and then, I went over to play in Israel in my first year and I have to fight with these guys just to get playing time. Like, there are some really good players that have been doing this longer than I have.
And so, for me, it gave me great perspective. I played another year in Spain, and I learned a lot. The Spanish league is the best league you can play competitively over there. And I've brought some of the things I've learned there into what I've done as a coach, and will continue to do that.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: So, do they approach the game radically differently in these different countries? Or is there a large overlap between how it's played?
Jon Scheyer: Yeah, it's a great question because the way their skills are developed and how they practice is very different. They're more skill-based in learning how to play the game. So, they're further ahead than we are in that, but we have greater talent than they do.
And so, when you have a greater talent, you can take for granted some of the details or the learning curve you need. When you see some of the most talented players in the world like Nikola Jokic, Jana Santatakumo, or Joel Embiid, they play different sports more. We’re too individualized over here. We do that where we start playing one sport at an earlier age but for them, they're playing multiple sports.
So, the footwork is a huge part of why they're so successful. So, I learned a lot, just the style of play, it is different. And that combination for me where there's still free flowing and you have to read and react but also, the fundamentals that you can learn over there really is what I want to incorporate and take a step further for us at Duke.
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Sandy Winnefeld: So let's get into coaching. Not many people get to coach at their alma mater. What made you want to get into coaching was it, 'Hey, this is just the only way I can stay on the court', or did you have a passion for that all along?
Jon Scheyer: I had a passion for it. I actually had, when I was young, I had this notebook when I was about 10 years old, and I made a playbook, rosters, schedules. So, this has always been in my heart. Honestly, I thought it'd be after having a 10-year NBA career, it just happened that God had other plans for me at an earlier age. But for me, I love the game. And so, coaching is the closest thing to playing.
And I felt like when my eye injury happened, it was my opportunity to help others reach the goal that I just missed out on. And so, it's been a pleasure for me this year, we had five players drafted in the NBA. And we hope that continues where we have a handful each year. I'm as excited as can be to be a head coach, I loved being an assistant coach, and am just ready to take the next step.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: So, you coached under legendary Mike Krzyzewski, for what, 9 years before being named the next coach? So, what are the key things you learned from Coach K, especially about managing risks? Because there's a lot to manage there in a different way than a player.
Jon Scheyer: It's much different. It's a different perspective. The biggest thing I learned from him, Sandra, is just the power of preparation. I mentioned that earlier about leading confidence, but, look, we all hope we're the best at Xs and Os, and motivation, and all those different things. And he's right there being the best of all those.
But he was never going to lose because he was out job prepared. He is a machine when it comes to his daily preparation, after a game, before practice, whatever it may be. And because of that, whenever we would have a setback, and we've had a lot of setbacks throughout my time here, the ability to handle adversity is as good as anyone that I've seen.
It starts with looking himself in the mirror. It doesn't start with looking out. It starts with looking in. He was demanding. He's on our players, he's on our staff to perform, but not any more than he is on himself. And that's the thing that I've learned that I hope to continue going forward.
Sandy Winnefeld: Jon, you probably could have coached almost anywhere in the country. And for all we know, you might have had people tugging at your cape trying to get you to leave Duke all along but you stayed there. What kept you at Duke? And what was the sort of hiring process that led to you becoming a head coach?
Jon Scheyer: I was getting a lot of interest to coach in other places in the last year or so. And the Duke job has been talked about for some time, who's going to be the next coach to follow Coach K. And I never really thought it was going to be me.
My family would tell you that, my friends would tell you that I've dismissed it. But sometimes the opportunity in the moment, if you're ready, you're in a position where things can happen.
People always ask me; you have big shoes to fill or it's such a daunting task and all these things. Alright, we're in the adrenaline zone. This is why we do what we do. Like, I love to do this. Would I rather coach in a place that's in my heart where I love so much at Duke University, and the program that I pour my blood, sweat, and tears into, as opposed to just coaching somewhere else because it's safer? No way. And so, for me, this is the biggest challenge. And with the biggest challenge comes the biggest opportunity. That's why I'm really excited.
You mentioned the hiring process, Sandy. It was about a month-long process and I did a few zoom calls with our athletic director at the time, Kevin White or new athletic director Nina King, and then our president, Vince Price. And at the end, you know, I felt like I did everything I could to put myself in the position. I felt, again, I'm sure you all have been there in your own fields, but I hit a home run whether that homerun translated into winning or losing or getting the job or not getting the job, I felt at peace. When Nina King calls me and said, 'You're going to be the next men's basketball coach at Duke' It was one of the best calls, if not the best call, I've ever received
Sandy Winnefeld: And the dog has caught the car.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: Yeah, because here you are at 34, the youngest coach in any power conference in one of the most coveted coaching jobs in all of sports, much less basketball. So, now that you've caught the car as Sandy says, how are you going to put your own stamp on the program, the legendary program there, as a matter of fact?
Jon Scheyer: Yeah. Well, I think it starts with having clarity in who I am because we're going to be in some pressure situations and not like your pressure situation, by the way, it's a different level.
But you have to follow your instincts. The advice I've gotten from a lot of coaches, Coach K himself actually, is they tried to be like the coach that came before them. And that's because you admire that person like I admire Coach K. I love what he's built. I love what he's done. But if I'm trying to be him in any way, then it's not authentic to myself, and I'm not going to be successful, our team won't be successful because of it.
So, I have great belief in what I know and what to do, and we have an amazing staff here that I'll lean on heavily, and just follow those instincts.
Sandy Winnefeld: So, the game has changed a lot. You were a four-year player if I'm not mistaken. Now you have a lot of one-year players who are so talented, so gifted, that they move on right away. Does that add more pressure to the challenge? Or is it just something you deal with in stride?
Jon Scheyer: Sandy, you mentioned it, but if you try to think about everything too much, you lose focus. And so, for me, it's just being in the moment and really adapting. I realized very quickly, in my first two months I've had to make decisions or think about things that Coach K never had to do in 47 years of coaching. That's how much it's changed.
And so, for me, I mentioned not trying to be Coach K. I can't be Coach K because Coach K never had to do this. And so, being really adaptable and flexible has been important for me even in these first few months.
And I think it's an exciting time. Do we have to figure out some direction and some organization such as college basketball and NCAA and all that? Yes, but overall, the freedom that our players have now, the opportunity to make money off their name, image, and likeness. it’s really important and it's something that we never even thought about when we were players, now they deserve it. So, I'm happy that we're moving in the right direction. We have ways to go.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: As you step into Coach K's shoes, and deal with this whole different world, not everybody out there watching from the outside understands all these pressures. So, how are you going to manage some of those expectations with a crowd of people externally, that are maybe looking at how basketball used to be played, and not necessarily understanding all these dynamics that you're discussing?
Jon Scheyer: I think it's a combination of over-communicating and explaining why we're doing what we're doing, the moment that we're in, and the time that we're in. And also, just do what you feel is best because no matter what, this is a job where there will be criticism, no matter what. It just will be.
This is a job where we have to deal with failure. Hopefully, I'm here coaching for a long time, we're not going to win every game. That doesn't mean I'm not going into every game thinking we're going to win. But there are setbacks.
And so, if you get too bogged down by what other people are thinking or what the perception is, I don't feel you can do your best focusing on the task at hand. So, for me, I'm gonna try to balance it where you articulate whatever you can, but also, let's go ahead and do what we feel is best.
Sandy Winnefeld: I just absolutely envy you. I remember when I went into my first commanding officer tour of a fighter squadron, I had this raft of notes that this is what I'm going to do with what I had accumulated. It wasn't like you just don't make it up when they tell you you're going to be the commanding officer of a fighter squadron. You've accumulated all this stuff over many years. I'm sure that you've got a ton of things that like 'I'm just itching to try this' or 'I'm ready to rock. This is me, it's my moment'. I'm really excited for you on that.
You're off to a really good start. You've got a really good year recruiting. You're heading back out on the road to do some more. And college basketball recruiting is incredibly competitive. You're looking at young people who are still growing and maturing. You said 18-year-olds, and how are they going to fit in your program. Without revealing any secrets, I guess, how do you go about addressing the risk of this unknown quantity that you're thinking of bringing into your very precious program?
Jon Scheyer: When I found out I was getting the job - this is June 1 of last year - we were behind in the recruiting class and we knew we were going to lose, basically, almost our entire team. I think there were two approaches. One was to hit singles or get on base and offer a lot of players and make sure we have a team and we're in a position to move forward. And the second one was, we're swinging for the fences. We're going for the guys that really fit Duke and we end up offering less.
We have 7 incoming freshmen. We only offered 8 players, okay? Just to give you an example, most schools, they're not recruiting 7 players. We knew we needed a bigger class, but they recruit 2, 3, 4, or 5 times as many guys and for us, we really pinpointed who were the ones that fit Duke. And when we do that, we feel like if we do our job of having great attention to detail and building great relationships, that they should come. And we're proud of this group we're bringing in. It says a lot about their belief in our staff and myself and Duke with what they feel we can do moving forward.
So, we've a special group. We’ll continue to recruit that way while still understanding we may have to adapt as this goes on in the next couple of years because of how quickly things can change.
Sandy Winnefeld: And it has to be sort of a bittersweet moment when one of your freshmen gets drafted by the NBA. For one thing, it helps your recruiting for another year, you're happy for the kid's success, but for a third, you just develop this guy and now he's walking out the door. It's got to be crazy.
Jon Scheyer: Yeah, well, I miss all those guys. It's less bittersweet when you have a guy go number one, like Paulo did. That's pretty good. You can't go any higher. But with all of them, all we ask, Sandy, is that they're all in when they're here. If you're all in when you're here, that will happen. And that's the goal for us, too. We want that to happen for them.
And all five of our guys who were drafted this past year, they're about the team first. They worked hard every single day. They sort of see the reward being that they're accomplishing a lifelong dream. It's actually less bittersweet. It's more just exciting for them.
The bittersweet part is we need to fill out a roster next year. That's always a bittersweet thing. I was at the NBA draft; I'm seeing our guys get drafted and walking up on stage. And I was like, ‘We were pretty good last year.’ That's a good reminder but that's the only thing.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: So, how's that compare, as a coach, seeing your players go off and achieve such success versus being a player yourself in that high school game, for example, with your incredible record, how does that compare internally?
Jon Scheyer: Yeah, it's two different feelings, actually, because I've been a part of two National Championships at Duke, one as a player and one as a coach. And after winning as a coach, I couldn't believe how happy I was, but I was very close to the level of when you're a player.
For me, it was a little bit different the first time we won. I felt like it was the making of three or four years because of all the ups and downs I went through as a player. I mean, it was a long time coming. The second championship, we won with a young group, it was basically a one-year journey. Tyus Jones was the most outstanding player. Working with him the morning of these shots coming off the ball screens because of the defense that Wisconsin played, and then, to see him do that in the game, it's so cool. It's just a cool thing. And to see the work and preparation pay off where you feel like you're a part of someone's journey, you didn't have that feeling either, like you did as a player. It's a special feeling.
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Sandy Winnefeld: So, nearly every coach I've ever spoken with, in any sport at any level, including myself, when I coached my kid in 8th grade football, I believe that it's not just about winning championships, it's about developing young people, right?
How does that play in your world? You're getting a lot of really young people, they've had a lot of success that might have gotten to their head a little bit, but you're trying to turn these into young men who are good people as well as great basketball players. How do you approach that?
Jon Scheyer: It's bigger than basketball. And so, for our guys, you're at such a pivotal age 18, 19, or 20 years old, where I know I think about for myself how much you grow. But you grow because you have setbacks, you have failures, on and off the court.
And so, of course you're trying to minimize those as a coach and teach them where they make less mistakes than you did, but also where they feel the care, they feel the love, they feel, they understand how to be successful when they leave Duke because on and off the court it's not going to be easy and there's going to be challenges ahead.
Sandy Winnefeld: Do you get a sense from parents that this is also what they're interested in, in addition to having their son go to an amazing basketball program or does that vary?
Jon Scheyer: No, it's a priority for a lot of our parents. It really is. And that's part of identifying, when we say identifying the right people, it's having the talent to have to win a National Championship.
I mean, we recruit really talented players, but also ones that have great character, and that care about academics. You have to have all three to come to Duke. In order for a player to have all three or a person to have all three, their family has to care about it in some level too, and that's what we've come to find.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: With the players who stay for a year and then head out to the NBA, I guess the academic sort of becomes a second priority?
Jon Scheyer: I don't know if I would say a second priority. It's a unique situation because like Paulo Banchero, for example. Paulo, I mean, his starting salary is $10 million and that's without his shoe contract, which he'll sign at some point. And there's a lot of off the court endorsements as well, but it's a tough task.
When I was here, a close friend of mine, Mike Posner, was a music producer. He was making music when he was in college. There are kids who have left school to start their own business or own company.
And so, some of our guys are in that position. And we talked to them about finishing what they started. And is that specific class going to impact Paulo next year? Maybe not all the time, but at some point, you're going to be proud that you finished the right way.
And so, our guys have done that, there's been challenges with it, just like when I was playing the National Championship game, the next day being in school, was that top of mind? I'm not sure it was, but you have to follow up with your responsibility.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: There's a lot of pressure on the athletes in Division One schools to balance the academics and the sport, especially at a place like Duke where there is that light at the end of the tunnel, where you can immediately have a career and maybe pick up school later. How do you manage that with your athletes?
Jon Scheyer: Well, you hit on a key point, which for us is how to handle adversity, but you're doing it in the spotlight. And so, you talk about growing, maturing and developing.
Now in the world we live in with social media and our games are on ESPN, you're 18 years old, and you get criticized. Like, that's a different feeling. It's not a high school game anymore.
And so, we know we talked a lot to our players,about how to handle that, and how not to be externally esteemed. You got to be internally esteemed because they're going to love you one day, and they're going to not like you the next.
Kobe Bryant had a great quote about being hated. He had to learn to embrace it. 'They don't hate the good ones; they hate the great ones.' And so, for our guys, I feel bad for them in some ways, Sandra, because I'm talking about as a kid as well, as a person where they're not able to grow through their mistakes, privately. A lot of it is so public and that's a hard thing to navigate.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: Now, I totally agree with that. That's not an age where you want all this external noise as you're trying to figure out who you are. That's hard.
Sandy Winnefeld: That's when it's good to have a bad memory, right? Like a pitcher who just gave up a homerun. Move on.
Jon Scheyer: Exactly.
Sandy Winnefeld: So, let's get down to the tactical level here. In game risk, the last 30 seconds of a game, kind of what we were talking about with Butler, except you're now a coach. What kind of risk decisions are you making as a coach? Can you give us an example where you had to make a really difficult decision sort of an end game regarding the risks of a choice you had to make on the court?
Jon Scheyer: Yeah, I was in a position this year where I was, effectively the head coach for a game. Coach K was ill for a game and a half, where I coached them. It’s really lineup decisions. You have to make decisions into the game not based on – I don't make them just based on analytics or anything like that. It has to be on the flow of the game and how our guys are doing.
A lot of decisions you make, Sandy, we had a game this year, where there's 8 seconds left, it’s a tie game. What do you draw up? And when you talk about handling risk, well, let's flip it, what's the best probability for us to win? And so, for me, in that moment, it was putting the ball in Paul Banchero’s hands, who was the number one pick in the draft, and wanting him to attack downhill to get to the basket.
And so, he actually did a great job of attacking downhill. He didn't score and Mark Williams came in and tipped it in. But we study, we had two of our guys who are great, Zach and Trevor Marcus. They run our analytics and video department here.
They went through end of half and end of game situations from the March Madness Tournament, from college basketball, and from the NBA Playoffs, and we're using those as teaching tools. One for our staff to make sure we're making decisions and thinking the right way, right? Because you can't wait until you get in the game, where, 'How does Jon feel about the situation?' or 'What are we going to do here?' We have to know somewhat if we're down.
One more example, I'll give you. Everybody talks about if you're up three, you have to foul end of the game. And it's not so simple. What's the time? What's the score? Who's in the game for them? Who's in the game for us?
And so, we study it. And so, when we're in those situations, it's not like you're going to go off your feel and instinct. There's also some backing behind it statistically or experience wise in that regard.
Sandy Winnefeld: And just for our listeners, you're fouling in order to get them a one- or two-point opportunity rather than a three-point opportunity, right?
Jon Scheyer: Exactly. The thought is, if we’re up three, we're gonna foul you, not shooting, of course, for your foul. But you go on the line, you only have 2 free throws or 3, so we get the rebound, we theoretically should win.
But I've been in moments where actually, we got fouled one time down three, and Trey Jones, 4 seconds left in North Carolina, makes the first, misses the second off the side of the rim, goes and chases it down and hits the shot to send it into overtime.
So, there's a lot of things that can happen. And it goes back to, Sandra, your comment at one point about, there's going to be decisions you make that’ll be criticized and that's why you can't make a decision just to be safe or just to not to lose, you have to play to win. So, every decision we make will be aggressive and it will be what we think is the best thing to give us the best probability to win.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: So, we've talked a ton about the importance of preparation. And clearly, that's job number one. But we've also talked a lot about your idea of competition, and that you're an intense competitor. Are there any situations where that competitive streak may have led you astray?
Jon Scheyer: You should get some of my high school buddies up here, they’ll tell you about some of the pick up games where I would lose or video games when I would lose. And I think there's an old controller that I broke with my friends I never replaced because I lost.
So, it's gotten the best of me at times. I've always, at a young age, my mom would always tell me when I was really young, I just hated to lose, and I had to learn how to be a good sport about it.
If my friends are listening to this now, they're gonna say you're still not a good sport, but I think I am. With the passion comes joy. If you don't hate to lose, or if you're not disappointed after you lose, then you didn't put in what it takes or you don't have the joy. That's the way I look at it. And so, for me, it's really helped me to get to where I am. It wasn't just the talent or skill, I had to be really passionate and competitive to have an edge.
Sandy Winnefeld: So, Jon, you and I are both friends of retired Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Marty Dempsey, who is Coach K's West Point classmate, if I'm not mistaken. Have you drawn anything from that relationship and from the military in general?
Jon Scheyer: Yeah, a ton. I've been so lucky to get to know him through the years because he has amazing expertise and wisdom. Actually, I'm not a reader but I'm an audiobook guy. So, I've been listening to his new book, which is great, by the way.
One of his main messages in there is you don't make decisions by yourself, you don't get anywhere by yourself. You have your family, in his case, he's talking about his family and Deanie making key decisions in his life.
The first day, I was officially the head coach, he sent me a quote, where it stuck with me. It was, “A journey of 1000 miles begins with a single step.” I'm sure you've heard that before but for me, I took it that you just don't skip steps. You have to be in the moment.
I shared that quote with our team that first day. I didn't give him any credit for it. I said, 'This was my quote, alright?' No, I did give him credit. He has great wisdom and he's somebody that I'll lean on throughout my time here at Duke.
Sandy Winnefeld: Well, I sure enjoyed working with him as his Vice-Chair, and I'll treasure that relationship forever.
Jon Scheyer: That's special.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: So, we talked about, again, preparation and competition, but let's go a little sideways, do you have any special rituals that you have cultivated over the years before you step out on the court as either a player or a coach?
Jon Scheyer: It’s changed and I can't tell you for sure what my routine will be as a head coach because it's a little bit different. But as an assistant coach, I always try to do something just to get a workout in or something physical.
I felt a lift or walk is something to clear your head because the waiting is the worst. When the ball is tipped, you feel like you're in the moment. You know what you want to do and you're not thinking about anything. But before the game, your mind is just racing, and so, for me being active, doing something is really, really helpful through the years.
Sandy Winnefeld: Well, Jon, this has been a fantastic conversation. I think we could talk for hours about all the intricacies of not only the game, but also what it's like to step into such an amazing program as essentially the CEO of Duke Basketball, and we really look forward to seeing you and we hope you have a good season this year and we're I'm really, really happy that you decided to coach instead of be a courtside commentator. I think it's gonna be really fun to watch. So, thanks so much for joining us.
Jon Scheyer: Thank you both so much for having me. We'll have to do this again sometime.
Sandy Winnefeld: Absolutely!
Dr. Sandra Magnus: Yeah. Thank you for your time. We know you're super busy, but it has been really fun chit chatting.
Jon Scheyer: Same on my end. Thank you!
Dr. Sandra Magnus: That was Jon Scheyer, Duke University's Head Basketball Coach. I'm Sandra Magnus.
Sandy Winnefeld: And I'm Sandy Winnefeld. Many thanks to our sponsor, Dunkin'. Dunkin' fuels the people who take on every challenge headfirst, and we know the right kind of fuel they need, an ultra-smooth Dunkin' Cold Brew.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: Join us back in the Adrenaline Zone next week for a new episode and be sure to follow the show wherever you get your podcasts.
