The Thrill of the Chase with Storm Chaser Hank Schyma
On this episode of the Adrenaline Zone, Sandy and Sandra are joined by storm chaser Hank Schyma, aka Pecos Hank. Unlike most who go indoors when thunder roars, Schyma does the exact opposite. When a severe storm warning crosses his path, he packs up his car with film gear and heads off to rendezvous with the storm. Today he talks about all things Mother Nature, from hunting for hotspots and the unexpected dangers of storm chasing to TLE’s and Hollywood’s hokey interpretation of the job.
Opening up the episode with brief notes on his childhood love for storms, Hank recalls the journey that led him from his boyish bedroom to Tornado Alley. As one would expect with a career like Schyma’s, making his dream a reality was no easy pursuit and certainly cost him a lot - especially in gas money - along the way. So listen in today and get swept up in Hank’s riveting analysis of the ins and outs of storm chasing, the rather unexpected dangers of the chase, and the role that adrenaline plays in this work to which he has dedicated his life.
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Transcript:
Dr. Sandra Magnus: It lies somewhere between the pit of your stomach, your racing heart, and your brain; somehow, trying to keep it all together. It's an area we call The Adrenaline Zone.
I'm retired astronaut, Dr. Sandra Magnus.
Sandy Winnefeld: And I'm retired Navy pilot, Admiral Sandy Winnefeld.
We're two adrenaline junkies who love spending time with people who are really passionate about pushing their boundaries as far as possible.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: Growing up in the Midwest, when the National Weather Service issued a tornado watch, my family headed to the basement to wait out the storm, listening carefully to the sounds of Mother Nature, as the passing storm raged outside.
Sandy Winnefeld: But our guest today, Hank Schyma, does the exact opposite when a severe storm warning alert crosses his path. As a storm chaser, he loads up his car with equipment and sets off to rendezvous with the storm, and hopefully, record some scary good video and audio.
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Dr. Sandra Magnus: We caught up with Hank at home, in Houston, the day before he was heading out to track another storm.
So, Hank, thank you for joining us today on The Adrenaline Zone, and I'm glad we found a moment to chat because I think you mentioned you're going to be out chasing a storm tomorrow, right?
Hank Schyma: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me here. Yeah, right now, it looks like we're going to have some severe weather near the Ark-La-Tex area, along I-20. So, really messy scenario, but there could be some big tornadoes in a very dangerous area.
Sandy Winnefeld: So, nobody would hope for that, but if it's there, it's there, and you're going to go look at it, right?
Hank Schyma: Yeah. And I don't even want to go - the tornadoes are likely going to be rain-wrapped, they'll be moving 42 to 50 knots. Very unlikely success rate for storm chasers, but if it's your job, you kind of have to go to work, just-
Sandy Winnefeld: Well, we interviewed a baseball player the other day. You know, your batting average doesn't have to be very high if you hit the ball at the right time, right? Well look, I don't know if storm chasing is the right word, but I think we like to usually start at the very beginning with our guests. Like, how did you get into this? Growing up, was it something you thought of, or what seized your interest in these beautiful things we call thunderstorms?
Hank Schyma: My first camera was a 110 film camera, that little tiny film, and I got one, and I can remember a storm coming and just trying to get lightning, trying to get the secondary strokes - we call the return strokes - and got one. And I guess it started there, I've just always been fascinated-- it's all rooted in a fascination and love for all things Mother Nature, for the beauty of it, and then capturing it so that you can relive it, and study it the best that you can.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: So, are there a lot of people that do this, and do you run into each other? Because it's your office, right? Do you have other people working in your office?
Hank Schyma: Oh yeah. It's so funny because my friends and colleagues, you know, you'll see tomorrow, I don't know what state it's going to be in, but we all kind of have a formula that we use, and you run into them all over. And yeah, sometimes, under these tornado warnings, there can be traffic jams of storm chasers.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: Oh my gosh.
Sandy Winnefeld: So, it's never, "Hey dude, this is my storm, not yours. Get out of the way."
Hank Schyma: Well, if you're a rookie, you might think that way. But me, I just roll with it. It's part of it.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: Yeah, I noticed in some of your footage on YouTube, there's a camera focused on a tornado and it looks like it's pretty close, and then a car goes by on the road.
Hank Schyma: That was probably Scott, or Reed, or Daniel Shaw. Yeah, those are my buddies.
Sandy Winnefeld: You know, you mentioned when we were talking earlier, that you approached a storm with the goal of documenting the beauty of nature more than anything else. So, what kind of photography, and video, and audio training, did you have in order to be able to capture these amazing photos that you have and videos? And how much junk do you lug around with you when you're trying to run these things down?
Hank Schyma: As much as you can. And then, how much is too much? Like, somebody will say, "Why don't you ever stream live?" Because that's another tool that you can use to generate revenue so that you can afford to do it again. And I never stream live because it's one more bowling pin in the mix. It's that last bowling pin that it's too many to juggle, and then the whole thing comes crashing down. So, as many bowling pins as you can juggle, you do.
Sandy Winnefeld: Yeah, I think I understand juggling bowling pins, and that's-
Hank Schyma: - I figure both of you guys-.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: So, you had some time as a cameraman, and that gave you, I guess, some insights into the video, but a lot of it has been self-taught because you've got some amazing shots.
Hank Schyma: Same thing with music - it's all been self-taught. With me, that's just how my plan works out. If you have a fascination for something, it makes it really easy to learn. You know, a student that is bored in Math is going to have a tough time with it, versus somebody as you know, who likes solving problems. To me, that's everything right there - if something doesn't interest me, it's going to be really hard for me to learn it. But cameras, and documenting things, and Mother Nature, has always just been so easy for me. So, no training. Like, when I went to college for this stuff, it was like I was way ahead of them. It was like I'm going back in time, sitting in class, and learning about-- it's like, "Yeah, let's move forward." So, it's all self-taught.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: So, you're going out tomorrow to chase a storm. How do you figure out, where is there a storm worth chasing? What makes one attractive? Are you listening to weather reports? Are there certain atmospheric conditions, or do you just kind of go for all of them? How do you figure that out?
Sandy Winnefeld: Then on top of that, to add to Sandra's question is, every one of these trips you take is an investment, right? Your time, your fuel, your attention, as Sandra asked, how do you know, this is the storm I want to go to?
Hank Schyma: The answer to that is: all of it. Because it's the one you don't go to that will surprise you. And so, most of the chasers that I know, that do this for a living, you just kind of have to hit them all because there's only three or four events in a year, and you never know when exactly that event is going to be the right event. In other words, for us, it needs to be photogenic. Of course, you know there's roughly 1200 tornadoes in the US every year, but how many of those are photogenic? How many are in the daytime?
Tomorrow, there's a very unlikely chance of photogenic tornadoes. They're going to be wrapped in rain, they're going to be just nebulous. Most tornadoes are kind of nebulous. Like, you might be disappointed if you saw one because we think of tornadoes as these high-based, highly visible tornadoes, funnels coming from the ground. But that's kind of what-- the internet says it's a tornado because that's what is shared more often than a more realistic nebulous rain-wrapped, ill-defined tornado. So, that's what's going to happen tomorrow, I think.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: So, that just looks like a dense pile of rain swirling around, and you can't even tell there's something like a tornado on the inside?
Hank Schyma: And that also makes them more dangerous because you can't see them coming, you know, especially, in East Texas where it's all a forest. You don't really know there's a tornado coming until it’s right on top of you. And that's what I'm thinking may happen tomorrow.
Sandy Winnefeld: So, I would imagine that-- if I were a betting man, I'd say the best season for doing this is the springtime when-- but that doesn't necessarily mean that the most photogenic tornadoes are in the springtime. Is there a time in the year when you're particularly excited about, "Hey, I’ve got a really good shot at getting something today?"
Hank Schyma: Yeah. April, May, and June. For me, tornadoes tend to get more photogenic in June when they move into the Northern planes, just due to the parameters - maybe less humidity where the tornadoes are occurring, and so, you get the high-based-- the tornadoes that I was talking about. And one of those high-based tornadoes where the cloud base is really tall, and the funnel is well defined, and there's no rain wrapping around it, one of those will make your season, versus 20 rain-wrapped, ill-defined ones. And a lot of those tend to happen in June.
I'm located in Houston, and so, it's a long drive to Montana for me, and especially, if I don't see that on my radar, two, three days out in advance, I'll miss the event. Sometimes, they pop up like, "Oh. You know, eight hours from now looks really good.” If you're not already out there, you miss it.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: So, you're basically driving all over the US to chase storms. Usually, the Midwest is sort of the rich, fertile, storm-generating area for tornadoes though, isn't it?
Hank Schyma: Right.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: Or have you gone as far up as like Maine or Washington State?
Hank Schyma: Not for tornadoes. I've gone up to Maine for the black flies they have there, but-
Sandy Winnefeld: -Oh, yeah. Those are fun.
Hank Schyma: -yeah. Wear your cap.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: I remember diving into the basement. I grew up in the Midwest, if there was a storm coming with a tornado in it, we all headed for the basement. You watch the green sky, but Texas has the most beautiful skies for watching thunderstorms approach.
Sandy Winnefeld: And Sandra, as in my prior business, there's a process. You know, you brief, you prepare, you go out to your airplane or your space shuttle, and you fly, and then you come back and-- can you walk us through your process, from the moment-- "Okay, I'm going tomorrow," through actually the moment when you're there getting the pictures.
Hank Schyma: I love how you just said, “You know, you go, you go out in space, you know, you get in the ship, you know, you go-”
Dr. Sandra Magnus: -That's the thing-
Sandy Winnefeld: -Hey, it's a routine. It's a process.
Hank Schyma: It's amazing. Yeah. First, you start to see pattern recognition. You start to see the upper-level lows that come across the Rocky Mountains, or then they form on the leeward side of the Rockies. And that is this system that happens here so often, that assembles all the ingredients for tornadoes. It's just this one process of these upper-level lows coming over the Rocky Mountains, and the Physics just bring all the elements that you need for a tornado together, and that happens here so often. So, you see that happening-- and it's also good because once it's moved on, you're like, "Okay, I've got a few days."
And the numerical models that we all use-- you know, if you hear a weatherman, he's just going to the numerical models. And so, that's all access. We all have access to these numerical models, and they're constantly updated, and they're basically the best that we understand the laws of Physics as humans. So, they're supposed to be improving and improving, and they're just getting to me for what I do - incredibly accurate. So, when I hear somebody say, "Yeah, the weatherman are always wrong." Like, you don't know what you're talking about. You know, it's because all my friends can look at numerical models and say, "I need to be in North Dakota in 48 hours," or "Eight days out, there's a really good chance that's a little far, but you can say with some confidence that low-pressure system is going to be over Montana in eight days, so I need to be in North Dakota in eight days." So, I guess with all the numerical models, it's just amazing to me how accurate they are.
And then we have different numerical models for the different timestamp, kind of like the isotope dating, you know, it's like, "How far in time do you want to go back?" And then two days out, we have a model called the High-Res Rapid Refresh, and I'm just astonished last year at how it performed. I remember in the year prior, in 2021, I thought, "Man, this thing isn't performing as well." But last year, I was just astonished at how well these numerical models say-- I mean, literally, it'll tell you, "A supercell thunderstorm is going to happen here in two days," and you take that as just guidance. You're not saying that exact cell is going to happen, but with that kind of guidance, you can really be accurate and save less time and gas driving around.
So, that's how it starts - is you're just looking at models and trying to get as much data and understand a lot of parameters as much as possible. And then let's say the day of the chase, let's say that there's a chance of, like tomorrow, of significant tornadoes, where a tornado is EF2, or greater, on those days, you kind of feel anxiety, adrenaline. You're feeling that on the morning you wake up because you know, "Wow, Godzilla is coming." You know, even though he is nine hours away, and we talked about this a little bit earlier, it's like managing that anxiety, and that adrenaline, so that you can be rested. You might get to the target area four hours early, be really nice to shift off of the sleep deficit, you know, you get a 30-minute catnap. If you've got all that adrenaline still, that kind of interferes with that process. And so, you're there on the target area, then the things that you imagine start to happen - you start to see the clouds boil, they start to bubble up on the radar, and all the things that you predicted are starting to happen. That alone right there is amazing.
Even if you capture a tornado, and it's a non-photogenic tornado, just the process of clairvoyance, if you will, is fascinating. And, "Wow, what I predicted is happening before me." So, the fact that we just live at an age where you can do that, it doesn't get old. It blows my mind away every time it happens. So, then, the tornado happens and then you chase it.
Sandy Winnefeld: Yeah. Well, as you were talking about how these patterns develop, you know, it's like we've got this incubator for tornadoes east of the Rockies, and it made me wonder, is there anywhere else in the world with those same sort of terrain and meteorological characteristics where there's just frequent tornadoes?
Hank Schyma: There's other hotspots, none of them can compare to the US. Argentina could be a kind of mirrored version of the US. It's really interesting because for us, our source of moisture, which is one of the things we need for tornadoes, is the Gulf of Mexico. In Argentina, the source of moisture is the Amazon basin. So, I think that's pretty amazing. Even though it's land, it's just so moist. So, the air comes up, or South, from the Amazon basin to Argentina, and then they also have the North-South running mountain ring. And so, the jet stream comes over that, they get their lee low. So, it's an inverted version of us, but it's still not nearly as efficient as producing tornadoes.
Sandy Winnefeld: So, you wake up from your catnap, and what?
Hank Schyma: You realize you cat-napped too long.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: Oops.
Hank Schyma: Yeah. Oops, oops. "Oh man, I need to be in Paris, Texas." And so, you start rolling, and it's constant relocating, and even that can be a process. One of my things is, if I need to relocate one mile, I'll do it. Like, it's just shipping away and closer. And sometimes, it's not a straight line, it's, "Okay, I’ve got new data, where do I need to be?" And you move to there, "Okay, I got new data, I need to be back where I was." And I do that constantly until the storm happens, and you know exactly where you need to be, where it's obvious.
Sandy Winnefeld: So, it's too much of a pun to say you're funneling down. I'm sorry, Sandra, go ahead.
Hank Schyma: Yeah. I feel I've used that before, where the things that I'm good at, and the things that I'm not good at in life have funneled me to this trade.
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I mean, storms are quite literally a force of nature. And you talk about, you're moving from place to place to place. So, what have you learned over the years about safe distances and the factors you have to watch out to stay safe while trying to get the best video? And by the way, we were talking yesterday, and for anybody who wants to check out some of the video, go to the YouTube channel, Pecos Hank, and he has some stunning storm images out there. And sometimes, it looks like you're getting a little close. So, what are your safety factors in that decision?
Hank Schyma: That's a great question that we all wrestle with. I come home and I tell my wife, "I'm not going to do that." Like, I pushed it too far, I'm not going to do that, and then I go out and do it. And then I have to analyze, "Why did I do that again?" And you just get so caught up in it, and so, you have to go back and sort all that out. And I'm constantly trying to psychoanalyze my own behavior, you know, my bias - why did I chase that storm? Was it really that dangerous? It looks really dangerous on camera. Maybe at the time, it wasn't that dangerous. But of course, generally, what we do is very dangerous. But as you guys probably understand, it's relative. I would take a close tornado that I'm in control of, versus I-35 commute any day. With the people driving, you know, on their phone, that are -- I mean, that is so dangerous. And we can joke about that, but more storm chasers, that's the big reality of the danger, is the commutes back and forth, back and forth. You know, every time I get back, it's like, "Yeah. I got a couple of tornadoes, but man, driving through the DFW Metroplex wore me out. You know, with all the crazy driving.”
Sandy Winnefeld: So, I guess what you're saying is, you know, we talk about hours of boredom punctuated by moments of sheer terror. You have hours of sheer terror on the highway, punctuated by moments of excitement with a tornado going by, right?
Hank Schyma: Yeah, exactly.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: Well, I heard you mumble on your, I think, best of 2016 tornadoes, like, "Oh, I think I got a little bit too close this time." So, did you start feeling the wind a little bit more?
Hank Schyma: Yeah. So, one time, it can be an error in data. Like one time, I use a tablet map, and in the craziness of storm chasing, my tablet got skewed clockwise, 30 or 40 degrees, without me knowing. And this was in Northwest Texas where the roads aren't grids, they meander through canyons. Because if I was in Kansas and I saw the grid, I'd go, "Oh, Oops." And I didn't know that, and so, I thought I was going North, and I was actually going to intercept a large mile-and-a-half-wide rain-wrapped tornado. I thought I was going North, I was going Northwest, and then, I was also in a canyon. And so, I was like, "This doesn't feel right." And there was a driveway that went up to the canyon, I drive up the canyon to get a look, to get my bearings, and here it is just coming right at you.
So, when you're out there as much as we are, which is day, after day, after day, the chances of a dumb error like that increase. And then also, another big factor is, I wasn't really expecting a tornado, because sometimes, what gets me in trouble is, I didn't have faith in Mother Nature like, "Ah, she's not going to do it today." And then when she does, you're like, "What? Hold on." So, that'll get me in trouble too.
Sandy Winnefeld: So, I guess that part of the checklist is-- because the checklist can keep you safe; is, does my reverse gear work in my truck today to get the heck out of there?
Hank Schyma: That brings me to something I'd like you guys to chime in about, and that's the role of adrenaline. And so, yeah, you've got your certain doses of adrenaline and then-- okay, you get up, you come over the ridge, and boom, here's the tornado coming. You get an extra surge of adrenaline. You don't want to panic, obviously, so, you've got to back up down a potholed little driveway with muddy ravines on the side. One wrong move and you're stuck. Time to keep cool, focus, backwards slowly, get on the paved road, punch it. Do you see where I'm getting at with that? What do you guys, in a similar situation, do you have a model, a checklist for how to handle it?
Dr. Sandra Magnus: Well, I think in the positions that we had, we were working in kind of like you, you know, you do this every day, right? And so, the adrenaline becomes, I don't say less and less a factor, but your norm is working on the edge, and you're well-trained for it, and you're very focused on the mission, and getting the thing done that you're trying to get done. And so, adrenaline spikes, whether they happen or not, become not really a factor in how you're performing. I guess that's the way I would put it.
Sandy Winnefeld: Yeah. I think Sandra is right, you know, training and procedures, and then, you know, rehearsal in your mind for things that can go wrong. And then, I think you nailed it, Hank, and in the moment, you just sort of tell yourself, "Okay, I got a few things I need to do here, and if I panic, it's going to get in the way. So, I just can't panic. You know, I've got this hydraulic failure at low altitude coming in to land on a dark night at a ship, and I'm just not going to let this affect me. I've got to do just a couple of procedures here, and then I'm going to make it happen.” You're probably going through the exact same thing when that moment occurs. It's like, "Holy crap, I got a few things I’ve got to do, I’ve got to back down this ravine." And you just do it.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: And again, listening to your videos, your narration is quite calm. So, it's clear that you're used to being in that environment with that sort of adrenaline rush, it doesn't come out in your voice. As you're so close to these storms, as you're videoing them, you're just calmly narrating.
Sandy Winnefeld: Yeah. I also think, Hank, there are people who don't do that. And they either clutch up and don't do anything, or they act impulsively and make a fatal mistake, instead of sort of reverting back to the good training, and the good preparation that they did, which is fundamental and then just control their emotions. I'm sure you've experienced that yourself.
Hank Schyma: Yeah, exactly. The role of adrenaline is, it helps you focus. But anxiety is in there too, and I get the two confused sometimes. But my association, in my job, the adrenaline, I feel like it's not a good thing. Like, I don't want it. or maybe, I tell myself that maybe the adrenaline is a good thing, it's helping me focus, and it's the anxiety that I don't want. But for me, there's been people talk about the adrenaline junkie, and I've said I'm not that guy, but now, I'm like, "Maybe I just don't understand adrenaline." But for me, I've always thought that gets in the way of what I'm trying to do.
And you're right, it gets easier and easier each time. Obviously, the first time this happened, I wasn't as calm and collected. So, I'm wondering if you guys have any thoughts on the role of adrenaline versus anxiety. Is it a good thing for us versus somebody who is new to danger?
Sandy Winnefeld: Well, I'll tell you, the first time I landed an airplane on an aircraft carrier at night, I was-- I wouldn't say a chocolate mess, but I was not-- I'd never done it before, so I was like, "Holy crap, this is a lot harder than I thought it was." And then, over time, you start to realize that the throttles have the same action in the daytime as they do at night, so you don't want to overdo those. But I can promise you that that doesn't make you want to go back out at night as a pilot.
But I do think there are certain situations, like daytime carrier landings, whatever, where you want to go test yourself. And you know, you are on adrenaline, and you are working as hard as you can, and you're really, really focusing your attention as hard as you can, and right brain activity, whatever, and you land, and you go, "I could have done that a little better. I want to go out and do it again." And I felt more alive than just sitting around. So, I think I wouldn't call it junkie, but maybe there's a little bit of an addictive nature of it, I don't know. Sandra, what do you think?
Dr. Sandra Magnus: Well, I would put it this way. You know, the adrenaline, it's a chemical reaction to a new situation, or a stressful situation that your body undergoes, right? And so, being able; 1, to separate the emotion out, but 2, understand that the addiction part is probably more related to being challenged and constantly challenging yourself, and the adrenaline is just a chemical reaction in your body that's happening when you put yourself into challenging situations. Right-
Sandy Winnefeld: -See, she's the scientist, and I'm just a pilot.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: But seriously, I mean, it's fun to challenge yourself and push the limits of what you can do. You know, it's like a voyage of discovery to see what's possible. But we're sort of these interesting people as human beings, in that, we're explorers, and we want to push the limits, but yet we're also afraid of the unknown, right? And so, that ability to separate that fear out, and still do the challenge is, I think, at the core, Hank, of what you're talking about, and Sandy, too. But the adrenaline is a byproduct, right?
Sandy Winnefeld: I think it's really cool that you are introspective about whether it's the adrenaline that brings you back. But you told us at the very beginning that the beauty of these things is what drew you out to continue to do this, but you're also a citizen scientist, right? You gather documentation and data for scientists you collaborate with, even though you're technically not an academic PhD yourself. Tell us a little bit about that. Who do you collaborate with? How do you select who you collaborate with, and what kind of data are you giving these people?
Hank Schyma: My objective is to capture videos for myself that I can rewatch and relive the moment. So, if I'm screaming, and cursing, and shaking the camera, that interferes with-- even though that can be a great delivery for entertainment, I'm not ragging on that style at all. But my style is, I want to go back and observe the tornado. And it's easier to observe with stable footage, and with me not flapping my gums.
So, at first, I wasn't that guy. I was, "Oh my God", you know, we used to take all the audio out because I ruined the audio with my descriptive words. So, my videos tend to be as stable as possible, and it's about the tornado, it's about the lightning, it's about the other elements of Mother Nature. And so, the scientists have picked me, like they've said, "This can help my work." So, one of the guys that I really enjoy-- I enjoy working with all of them, is, Dr. Leigh Orf at the University of Wisconsin, who is modeling these tornadic storms with supercomputers at 10-meter resolution. So, if I talk about the numerical models that I watch, we're talking-- the sharpest ones are eight-kilometer resolution maybe. So, that's not going to really resolve a tornado unless it's eight kilometers wide, which we haven't really had yet. The biggest one has been just over four kilometers wide.
So, at 10-meter resolution, he can see everything that's happening inside this simulation. But it's a simulation. So, is it a real representation of nature? I'm looking at simulations and I'm saying, "That's what they look like." Like, I've seen all of these features, these vertical features here, these byproduct clouds over here, and so, what I'm doing is validating his simulation with side-by-side models of, "This is what his simulation is showing, this is what I've seen in nature." And sometimes, you can't even tell which one is the simulation, and which one is the actual footage.
So, that's a really fun thing is, anytime he sends me a new angle, I'm like, "I've got that." And then I send him the actual shot, and side-by-side, you can compare them.
Sandy Winnefeld: So, to be clear, it's really the video that he's using for his science work, and not necessarily like pressure instruments, or something that you've got out there?
Hank Schyma: Exactly.
Sandy Winnefeld: Okay. Wow.
Hank Schyma: It just shows him that, "Yeah, I'm on the right track," versus if the tornado going the wrong way, as we say, anticyclonic, he might say, "Well, maybe there's something wrong with the model." Because remember, we're constantly updating these models and trying to make them more like Mother Nature.
So, that's one collaboration. Another one I do is with Dr. Anton Seimon. We have a team where he uses photogrammetry, which is basically, clocking or tracking particle motions with high-resolution film. And so, we're a three-vehicle team, and because we're all good at getting video and stable video, and then he can use, through triangulating the particle motion, he recreates the tornado, to try to gather some information about the tornado.
Sandy Winnefeld: So, if there's like a house spinning around, you know, you're tracking the house?
Hank Schyma: Right, yeah. And actually, the smaller things, I think, are better indicators of wind speeds because they have the least drag and mass. And so, that could shed some light on tornadoes.
Ultimately, what everybody is trying to do is increase the lead time of forecasting. So, right now, let's say it's 13 minutes. In other words, "Hey, warning; you've got 13 minutes, or you're going to die." We're trying to increase that lead time. And then also, we warn a lot of storms that are rotating - the National Weather Service kind of warns most of them. And of those warnings, I think 20% actually produce a tornado. So, there's a very high false alarm rate, which is what they've opted to do - better to warn than not warn.
And so, we really don't understand why this supercell produced a tornado that was on the ground for two hours, and, you know, EF5 rating, and then this one didn't even produce a tornado. If we can figure that out, then we can reduce the false alarm rate, and then maybe, people will heed the warnings better, and then ultimately, lives are saved.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: So, when you get the scientists out in the field with you, do they sort of kink your style? You have to train them not to do stupid stuff, or they have some good protocols with them?
Hank Schyma: Well, Dr. Anton is a veteran chaser. He's teaching us stuff. He was doing it 15 years before we were. And then, of course, the other captain of one of the vehicles is Skip Talbot, and we all bring different things to the table. We all have very different styles of chasing. That's the thing, is we all chase very differently. So, we have a conch shell that we pass around. And so, whoever holds the conch for the day is the Admiral. And I mean, I'm just thinking, "All I've got to do is ruin the lives of two guys." And then I'm thinking, "You know, here's Admiral Winnefeld," everybody is dependent on your decisions, and the pressure of that-- just being in charge of four other people, and two vehicles is such a tremendous pressure that I don't know if I want, I can't imagine the pressure that you guys have had.
Sandy Winnefeld: Well, I guess tornado tourism then is out of the question for you, right?
Hank Schyma: That's out of the question for me. Well, with tornado tourism, you don't have to deliver them close to the-. In fact, they'd probably rather you didn't. It's like, "Okay, I'm not so sure I really wanted to do this."
Dr. Sandra Magnus: Yeah. If you get people in the field who don't know what they're doing, they can actually create risk and cause more problems.
Hank Schyma: Exactly.
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You know, you don't just do tornadoes, you do a lot of other things as well. I mean, we won't even get into your amazing musical career, for example, but-
Hank Schyma: -Good. That's boring.
Sandy Winnefeld: - but you actually discovered a new phenomenon that was, what, a ‘green ghost’, I guess a transient upper atmospheric electrical discharge, or something like that, which to me, sounded a little spooky at first, but it actually makes a whole lot of sense, and you've got photographic evidence of it. So, tell us a little bit about how you got into that.
Hank Schyma: Yeah, thank you. So, in 1989, some guy in Minnesota, pointing a high-sensitive camera at the sky, accidentally caught something called, what they called a ‘red sprite’. Of course, it was black and white on the camera, we didn't know it was red. Then, I think the same year, from space, I guess it would've been the Space Shuttle, or-- we didn't have the Space Station in '89, did we?
Dr. Sandra Magnus: Mm-mm. That was the shuttle.
Hank Schyma: Yeah. So, I guess it was the Space Shuttle, got shots of a sprite from space, and so, it's like, "Oh my gosh, we've got this new thing that we just discovered." Since then-- basically, we call them TLEs, transient luminous events, and they're these large-scale discharges that happen above thunderstorms. So, the ISS is about, 300 kilometers up?
Dr. Sandra Magnus: Yeah, it goes somewhere between there and 415. It's bouncing.
Hank Schyma: Right. So, in the Auroras, you would think of around 100 to 300 or 400 kilometers. So, the sprites are down about 80, 90 kilometers. So, you know, very high above the thunderstorm - you're still in the stratosphere. So, you've got all these different colors. They're beautiful, they're reds, and they're blue. And then a disclaimer, they're a lot dimmer than what you see in the photos. So, you can see them with the naked eye, it's like they're like the Auroras - they're not nearly as vibrant as how my camera presents them.
And so, I just wanted to capture those. They're just so beautiful. And after years and years of chasing them, one day, I was like,"Hey, there's a little green afterglow after two of my red sprites, has anybody ever seen this before?" And everybody was like, “No, no, that's not a thing. That's a camera sensor artifact." And I was just going, "Oh boy." Because I knew it wasn’t, and you could just tell by its behavior; it had structure, the way it dissipated. And turns out that me and a friend, we're kind of a team, together, we discovered them.
I captured the first two, and then he solidified the skepticism or killed the skepticism by getting several after that. He knows more about the Physics of these things, and so he came up with a hypothesis that it was the Oxygen being excited, which basically, the Oxygen in the atmosphere emits green at that pressure, and so, we called them ghosts.
Sandy Winnefeld: So, I guess you have to have special positioning and conditions for those things. I mean, because if you're around a system that has an awful lot of high clouds, and you just can't see-- I mean, you have to be able to see the top of the thunderstorm, and that means you have to be at a distance, and then you're zooming in on the top of the thunderstorm, and I guess you're just taking pictures as fast as you can because it's transient, right? Okay, thank goodness for the digital camera, right?
Hank Schyma: Oh, yes. Yeah. Thank God. The Fuji Chrome was getting expensive.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: So, are there other gaps in the literature, you know, things that are theorized, that you're actually trying to chase, or that was sort of a voyage? I mean, that was, the discovery, that was serendipitous.
Hank Schyma: So, with the TLEs, I've done some outreach with NASA, and there's some other scientists that are really interested because we call the ionosphere, what they also call it the ignorosphere, which is kind of a joke, but because we know so little about it, it's too high for balloons, and it's too low for this, or whatever. And so, any information we can get about this part of the atmosphere is good. So, perhaps, the green ghosts are shedding light. I think people were surprised that the Oxygen was exciting at that level. Some of the scientists were like, "Wow, I wasn't thinking Oxygen would excite at that level."
So, that's some side collaborations that I've done. And then, another one that I'm doing tethers right into your last question. Right now, I'm kind of assisting Dr. Walt Lyons, who is trying to gather data about ball lightning. And so, ball lightning is reported as a luminous orb that floats through your house, and, you know, a self-contained lightning ball, and it passes through walls and windows, and there's been reports that go back hundreds of years, but it's all anecdotal. And so, I'm the skeptic who's saying, "Look, we've got these storms surrounded by cameras." I mean, any storm, if I get a picture of something, I'm thinking, "Oh, I got a great shot," and then 12 other people post a better shot of the exact same phenomenon. That's, that's my- why is nobody getting high-resolution pictures of ball lightning? All the ball lightning videos that we're examining are low-resolution. It's the one pixel, you know, that's moving odd - it's that.
So, I'm very skeptical that it doesn't exist. But I also have all the field experience where the scientists have all the keyboard and Math experience. So, they send me the video and say, "What do you think?" And then we'll narrow it down like, "That's cottonwood. That's cottonwood seed flying by. It's just low-resolution, that's what that is." And then, I send him a bunch of high-resolution footage of cottonwood flying by that I've got. So, that's another little collaboration that I'm working on.
Sandy Winnefeld: So, as I mentioned earlier, you're also a songwriter and a musician, and you've used your music in the videos you produce. You know, it's a great example of merging Art and Science, which is, you know, how the iPhone was made. Has a storm ever actually motivated a song for you, or is it the other way round?
Hank Schyma: I think it's the driving. Like, all my songs, they all have a feel of driving. I love the freedom of driving on open roads, and so, you'll feel that in all my songs.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: So, I have to ask, since we're talking about weather; did you ever work with the Weather Channel? Because they're always out and about chasing weather as well.
Hank Schyma: I license to them regularly. They license my footage.
Sandy Winnefeld: Similar question. You know, storm chasing has been in a host of Hollywood films. Have you ever been involved with those efforts? You know, because they got to have video, and how well do they tell the story?
Hank Schyma: They don't tell the story well at all. Hopefully, that's going to change. I'm working with a guy who just finished a movie, unfortunately, it starred Alec Baldwin, and he had his accident. And so, they finished the movie before that accident happened with him, but they're going to release it in March, it's called, Super Cell, and it's about storm chasers. And instead of CGI, they're using all my actual tornado footage for the tornadoes.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: That's way cool.
Sandy Winnefeld: So, who is playing you?
Hank Schyma: Nobody is playing me. I'm just a couple of characters in the end credit.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: That's awesome. I mean, that is really awesome. We probably could talk to you for hours, but-
Sandy Winnefeld: -time flew by on this one, I'll tell you.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: I know. But we are running out of time. So, Hank, we really want to thank you for being a guest on The Adrenaline Zone, and taking a moment out of your schedule, since I know you're out tomorrow, to share the fascinating up close personal encounters with nature that you routinely have.
And again, if anyone wants to check out some of Hank's amazing video, check out his YouTube channel - Pecos Hank. It's really worth a look.
Sandy Winnefeld: And I suppose, sort of a final question, you know, after you have a day like you hopefully will have tomorrow, do you immediately post what you have? So, theoretically, we could check in almost any day and see what you've been doing.
Hank Schyma: I'm terrible at that. Like, my ultimate result is packaging it well, and so, that's a big problem is, there's the breaking news element, and there's so many guys that are so much better at the breaking news element. Like, the second they record it, they pumped it out of their car to the news stations. So, by the time I get there a day later, they're like, "We've got it."
So, my job is to package it up and make something informative that kind of lives past the breaking news, 24, 48 hours, that lives forever. "What did I learn from this storm? What can we learn from it? Here's what happened, or here's just the goofy thing that happened that day."
Sandy Winnefeld: Well, you know, we're grateful to our podcast producer, Riley Byrne, from Podigy, for turning us on to finding you, actually. Be safe out there, Hank. We'll follow you.
Hank Schyma: I can't express what an honor it is to be able to talk to you guys, that you took the time out to talk to me, and, I look forward to-- if there's anything I can assist you guys with, let me know.
Sandy Winnefeld: All right.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: Thanks. That was Hank Schyma, a full-time storm chaser, sharing his adventures with us.
I'm Sandra Magnus.
Sandy Winnefeld: And I'm Sandy Winnefeld.
Thanks again, to Culligan Water for sponsoring this episode. Get exceptional water for exceptional performance. Learn more, at: culligan.com.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: And check us out on social media, including a short video of our interview with Hank, on TikTok. Our handle is very simple: @theadrenalinezone.
