High Sea Hazards with CAPT Cynthia Robson
Captain Cynthia Robson finds herself in The Adrenaline Zone today to discuss with Sandy and Sandra the exciting world of operating merchant ships at sea and details from her career in the field. Along the way, she also touches upon such topics as the risks associated with piracy, the challenges of rough weather, and the unique difficulties that come with being a woman in a male-dominated industry. The complexity of operating different types of ships, the benefits of crew diversity, and the unique opportunity of booking a cabin on a merchant marine ship are examined as well during this fascinating episode.
As the conversation unfolds, Captain Robson highlights her experiences that range from sailing on ocean races to leading a joint training cruise with cadets from the United States and the Soviet Union after the fall of the Berlin Wall. Captain Robson speaks candidly about the challenges of being the only female cadet and facing sexist remarks from male colleagues while also noting the increasing opportunities for women in the industry and her work at the US Merchant Academy. Captain Cynthia Robson's experiences and insights, as shared here today, offer a rare glimpse into the world of merchant mariners, a profession that often operates under the radar, and they provide a captivating listen for anyone interested in adventure, overcoming challenges, and thriving in The Adrenaline Zone.
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Transcript:
Dr. Sandra Magnus: It lies somewhere between the pit of your stomach, your racing heart, and your brain somehow trying to keep it all together. It's an area we call The Adrenaline Zone.
I'm retired astronaut Dr. Sandra Magnus.
Sandy Winnefeld: And I'm retired Navy fighter pilot Admiral Sandy Winnefeld. We're two adrenaline junkies who love spending time with people who are really passionate about pushing their boundaries as far as possible.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: When people think about merchant marine captains, they probably think of either glamorous cruise ship captains or men benignly navigating oil tankers and container ships around the world.
Sandy Winnefeld: Well, our guest today is going to put all those misconceptions to rest. Master Mariner Captain Cynthia Robson has been a merchant Mariner for 46 years, including serving as a captain for 30 of those years. And she has some hair-raising stories of what it's really like to be out on the high seas.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: And she did it in what may be the last bastion of what has for centuries been a male-dominated world on those same high seas.
Sandy Winnefeld: Now, I love a good sea story, so I'm looking forward to this one.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: And we caught up with Captain Robson in between classes where she teaches in the Department of Marine Transportation at the United States Merchant Marine Academy in Kings Point, New York.
Sandy Winnefeld: Stay tuned. It's going to be good.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: Captain Cynthia Robson, welcome to The Adrenaline Zone, and thanks for being with us today.
CAPT Cynthia Robson: Thank you so much for inviting me. This will be fun.
Sandy Winnefeld: All right, Captain Robson, before we talk to our guests about sort of the details of how they've taken risks and what their career has been like, we like to find a little bit about where they came from. So can you tell our listeners a little bit about how you got into the Merchant Marine in the first place?
CAPT Cynthia Robson: I grew up on the water. My parents’ house is a waterfront house in Nassau Bay, Texas. And when I was six years old, I had my first boat. After school, I'd run down to the bayou and now they call it Carlton Lagoon, but it used to be Cal Bayou. And I'd take off in a canoe or a sailboat, and when my mother would come down to the waterfront and ring the cowbell, that was time to come home for dinner. So that's how I started. Yeah.
Sandy Winnefeld: So I guess that's really important because I started my career when I was very young sailing. And having a little knowledge of wind and current and that sort of stuff really paid off later on. I bet it did for you.
CAPT Cynthia Robson: Yes, it did. And I went from canoes and little sailboats to racing larger boats, et cetera. But it was a formative experience. When I was in the 6th grade and I went to the Houston Regional Science Fair, it was a big deal to be able to go to the regional science fair. And at the regional science fair, there was an award. It was a full scholarship to go to Texas Maritime Academy, and they had a summer training cruise, and I decided that's what I wanted to do. I'd been at a Girl Scout camp. The Girl Scout camp overlooks the Houston ship channels, so I knew what ships were, but not much else about them. And so I found out about this award, and I went up to the judges at the award and I said, “Well, what do you do to qualify for this? How do you win this award?” And I remember to this day, clearly, the judge said to me, “First thing you have to do is change your sex because we will never take women at Texas Maritime Academy.”
Sandy Winnefeld: I guess you showed them.
CAPT Cynthia Robson: It was at that point I knew that that was the award that I wanted, and that's what I wanted to do. I was eleven years old at the time, and I knew I wasn't going to change my sex, so I knew that I was going to work really hard to win that award. And Texas Maritime Academy is part of Texas A&M University. Just want to add that. Anyway, so fast forward to high school. And I worked for years, literally throughout my high school career on my science project, spending weekends in a chemistry lab, et cetera. And my science project actually went all the way to the International Science Fair. And when it came to the senior year, when they were doing the judging for the scholarship to go to Texas A&M and go to Texas Maritime Academy on their training ship, they did the special awards. They made an announcement, the special awards judging was finished, and they never came by my project. Yeah, what would you have done? I should turn it to you.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: I’ll march up to them and say, “What the heck, people?”
CAPT Cynthia Robson: That's right. That's why you got so far in life as well. I went into the judges' chamber. There was a room set aside for the judges. And I went in there and I said, “Where are those judges from Texas A&M?” And they identified themselves and they said, “We've chosen a winner.” And I said, “No, you haven't. You didn't even come by my project. You didn't see my project.” And so I dragged them back out into the Astro Arena. It was at the Astro Arena at the time, and I won the scholarship.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: Good for you.
CAPT Cynthia Robson: That's how I got started on going to sea. And I went to Texas Maritime Academy.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: So up to the point where you were clearly working towards getting into the academy, what kind of training did you do, and skills did you have to learn both before and then when you got into the academy?
CAPT Cynthia Robson: I was fortunate that my father had been in the Coast Guard, so he had a background in– Well, I didn't realize at the time exactly like I do now as a merchant mariner. One of his jobs in World War II, he was shore patrol. And I think that– Sandy's laughing. It had to do with probably a lot of merchant seamen doing less than noble things ashore and throwing them into the brig. So he never discouraged me, but he would ask me periodically, are you sure you want to do this? But my parents were both very active in training responsible boat handling. My father taught boat handling and engine maintenance. My mother actually taught rules of the road to children like me that were going out on boats when they were very, very young. I should back up and say that we originated in Virginia. NACA, before it was NASA, we were in that original group that moved down to Houston from Virginia. My first memories were rockets shot off of Wallops Island. I know you're familiar with that. But anyway, so they were in the Chesapeake Bay Power Squadron, and then they came down, and we're in the Galveston Power Squadron, and we're quite both people. And then I went to the Girl Scout summer camp where I could see the ships going by, and I always knew that's what I wanted to do.
Sandy Winnefeld: Wow. So you got through school, and now you're enrolled in the Merchant Marine as an officer. So to baseline– Maybe there was something in between. So you can tell me about that.
CAPT Cynthia Robson: While I was at Texas Maritime Academy, I ran a dive boat and ran a research vessel for the Department of Oceanography because I already had quite a bit of experience. It was a small boat, but I had experience running vessels, and so I had the opportunity to do that and work for the Department of Oceanography, and that was quite an experience as well.
Sandy Winnefeld: When you graduated? When you graduated did you go into the Merchant Marine right away?
CAPT Cynthia Robson: When you graduate from a state academy or also from the federal academy, you graduate with a degree, and you also graduate with a third mate license. So by then, I had a third mate license. Actually, even before you graduate, it's important, as you well know, to decide what you want to do after you graduate and go out and interview for jobs and that sort of thing. And I remember interviewing, and I wanted to work on research vessels, and there was a company in Galveston that I interviewed. Oh, they were building research vessels. They had ships. So I had a job before I graduated, or so I thought. After I graduated and I had the license, they told me that they weren't hiring, that they didn't have research vessels. It was actually a small town, and I knew that they did, and I knew that other people were being hired. But that company, like many other companies, didn't want to hire women.
And I went to the union Mastermates and Pilots, and I worked as an apprentice, essentially. What is an apprentice? It's called an applicant as a union member. And I sat in the Galveston Hall, and I had quite a bit of what they call relief mate jobs and night mate jobs. But I was told that I could be an apprentice or be an applicant, but I could never be a book member because they were never going to allow women–
Dr. Sandra Magnus: Oh, my gosh.
CAPT Cynthia Robson: –in the Merchant Marine. And I have since found out that that is certainly not true. It was just the Galveston Hall that was saying that at the time. But since I've moved up here, I've met a lot of people that have said that that wasn't the case nationally. And it's a great union, and I don't want to disparage them at all. In fact, one of the union presidents, Captain Brown, he and I became very good friends much later in life, and I told him that story.
Sandy Winnefeld: So how long did it take you to get your first actual job on a ship?
CAPT Cynthia Robson: I was fortunate to be hired by the University of Texas, which is ironic. They hired an Aggie. I was actually on the Scientific Party because my first degree is Marine Biology, and I went to work on their scientific crew. My very first job after I graduated formally was working with plastic explosives and putting the detonators and fuses into plastic explosives, throwing them over the side. We worked out of Key West, which is a great home for it. And I think that you had asked me maybe in one of our correspondences about crews, and of all the crews on all the ships, the University of Texas, I would say that that was probably the worst ship and the best crew. They don't necessarily go together, but we had a great home port, and we did geophysical exploration, essentially.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: How does the Merchant Marine work? The types of trips, the frequency? What does that look like if you come into the Merchant Marine and you starting working there?
Sandy Winnefeld: Is it six months on, six months off, or something like that?
CAPT Cynthia Robson: It's a very good question, and it varies quite a bit. When I was a cadet, which is back in the ‘70s, it was different, and you were six months on and six months off was pretty standard for the Union employment. It's a lot different now. A lot of ships are two months on, two months off. I worked on a supertanker for a while that was four months on and two months off. I went to work after working for University of Texas. I worked for Shallow Oil Company on their survey vessels, and we worked two weeks on and two weeks off. Unless we were far away, like Point Barrow, Alaska, we might work four weeks or six weeks on. But it was always what they call a one-for-one schedule. And that's pretty typical whether you're working in the offshore industry and you're working one or two weeks on, it's the same number off generally. Military Sea Lift Command, the rotation is a little bit different in that you are on board the ship longer. The advantage of Military Sea Lift Command is that you gather sea time and you raise your license a lot faster. So a lot of recent graduates like to go to Military Sea Lift Command, plus it's a very steady job, good ships.
Sandy Winnefeld: So you started as a third mate. You talked about raising your license. What is the sort of the career path and how long does it normally take to get from being a third mate, a baby merchant mariner, all the way up to being an exalted captain?
CAPT Cynthia Robson: It really varies according to how much sea time you can accrue. And typically you go to sea and if you're working a one-for-one schedule, you have to accrue a year's sea time and you work for usually two years to get a year's sea time. If you're accruing sea time on an unlimited tonnage vessel, then you can sit for your unlimited tonnage second mate's license. Actually, when I was going up the ladder, you would sit for the third mate's license when you would be a senior in college right before you graduated, and then you would accrue a year's seat time, which, as I said, takes about two years, sit for second mates, and then do the same for Chief Mate and then do the same for Master. The Coast Guard has since changed the licensing frequency in that our students, for example, here at the US Merchant Marine Academy will be studying not just for third mate, but studying for second mate's license. They come out of school, they sit for a second mate's license. That's true of all of the five state academies as well as the Federal Academy. They will actually sit for second mates. The Coast Guard awards them a third mate and then when they accrue that year's sea time, they can turn in their sea time and they can get the yeah– So it saves–
Dr. Sandra Magnus: It’s that already.
CAPT Cynthia Robson: Yeah. And they're actually taking an exam, especially concerning the navigation. That's a lot more difficult than the third mates was.
Sandy Winnefeld: So The Adrenaline Zone is about people who take risks, which is why we had you on the show. So let's get into the risks associated with operating merchant ships at sea. And what really caught my eye initially was that you have some experience with piracy. So talk to us about your experiences there.
CAPT Cynthia Robson: My first experience with piracy, I can only look back on it and understand now that they were pirates. I was on again, the University of Texas research vessel working out of Key West. We weren't really very far. We were outside of the territorial limit of Cuba, but we weren't that far off. We got a distress call from a vessel, said that they had a fire, they were sinking, they needed our help right away and we were kind of out in the middle of nowhere. And this was in 1981 when there wasn't a lot of– Now, we have communication and we have cell phones and it's entirely different. But back then they didn't really even have and most vessels didn't have satellite phones. What that ship didn't know was that we had, by virtue of our research, we shared a satellite communication with the Forestry Department, and we called Key West Coast Guard Station and reported the vessel sinking. And then we called the vessel and said we were on our way and we could see them visually, but we said the Coast Guard cutter Valiant, I think it was, but don't quote me on that. Anyway, the Coast Guard cutter was en route from Key West and the vessel started its engines and really quickly–
Sandy Winnefeld: Never mind, never mind.
CAPT Cynthia Robson: No more communication. But in my research about piracy, now, I do know that that is one of the things that they do, is they'll pretend, especially when it's a smaller vessel. But I think you are asking questions more about larger ships than pirates. That was my first. I worked on a supertanker, four football fields long, to give an idea. When we were full and down, we drew 70 ft. So we ran a regular route between the Persian Gulf and Korea. Or if the vessel went from the Persian Gulf to northern Europe, we actually had to go around the Horn of Africa. We could come back through the Suez Canal, but we drew too much to be able to go through the canal en route.
But the route through the Malacca Straits at the time was a very heavily pirated area, as was the South China Sea. And we had more than one occasion where we encountered pirates, South China Sea. One very clever way that the pirates tried to come aboard is there were two vessels working in tandem and they had a very long line that they stretched out. They figured our track line and then we ended up if you can imagine the line going across and they go through it, and now we're towing them. Fortunately, we saw what they were doing and we were able to keep them from coming on board. There was another occasion also in the South China Sea, where the cook actually was out on the stern smoking a cigarette at some odd time, probably 4:35 in the morning, and he saw the grappling hook come up aboard and the pirates try to come and he managed to repel them.
But we were full and down and we were in the South China Sea and we were near Raffles Light, which is Singapore Straits. We were on a slow bell. It was before midnight. Our ship was so large that we would have to take a smaller vessel alongside to change out crew as well as take stores on board, put mail ashore, that sort of thing. This was during the Gulf War and so our regular ports in the Persian Gulf were not places where we could normally take cargo on board, well, cargo on board, but we couldn't change out crew usually, and we also couldn't take stores like food, for example.
So we were on a slow bell near Raffles Light and we were changing out crew as well as taking supplies on board and going very slow. I was up at the manifold, which is about abid ships, where the cranes are, and where we take the cargo on board. And I had checked off, I had the manifest and I was carrying it aft down the port side of the vessel. The captain was out on the bridge wing and he was screaming. And I remember looking up and wondering. He was a very calm person, and I was wondering why he was screaming because we had missile attacks during the Gulf War. And he never yelled like that, and it sounded like he was yelling boilers. So I thought, well, that's odd. We've had engine trouble before. And he didn't go out on the bridge wing and yell. And I had a radio and I was looking up at him it's about seven stories up to understand how high the bridge is. And I was trying to talk to him with the radio and somebody jumped from behind a vent and he had a large pipe, and he started hitting me with this pipe.
And it was at that point I realized that he hadn't been yelling boilers, he'd been yelling "Borders. Borders.” And so I kicked him in a sensitive place with a steel-toed boot and it worked. And I ran forward to the crew yelling "Borders" and then realized they weren't understanding me either. And so I yelled "Pirates". And we manned the fire hoses and managed to get them to go back over the side. The reason the captain had been yelling is because there were some pirates up on the bridge and they had a machete and they were going after him with a machete.
Sandy Winnefeld: Oh, my gosh. Yeah, I just have to ask and then I'll ask you a question about the weather. So they're going after a supertanker, it's like catching a whale. What the heck do you do with it when you–
CAPT Cynthia Robson: Since I've had the experience more than once with pirates, I asked the same question. I actually did quite a bit of research with the Office of Naval Intelligence on maritime security and piracy after the fact. But to answer your question, succinctly, it's not easy because there are certain kinds of pirates, like the ones that work off the coast of Somalia or did work off the coast of Somalia, where they are trying to take the ship, or they're trying to take the crew for ransom, or they're trying to steal the ship and this is a horrible thing that happens. A lot of times, you don't hear about it because it's not a US flag vessel. Our ship was a US flag vessel, but I doubt you ever heard about it. But pirates will steal the ship, throw the crew overboard and change the name of the ship and sell the cargo. They can't do that nearly as easily as they used to be able to.
Even as recently as the 1990s when they were stealing ships and reselling the cargo. The kinds of pirates that boarded our ship were stealing. The first thing they go for is the money in the safe. They try to get the captain to open the safe, which is what they were trying to get the captain to do at the time. They can come aboard and steal from the crew quarters. There was an incident where a really nice pair of sneakers was stolen. And then the ship was in port subsequently and the crew member actually saw his own sneakers for sale. I did research on what is the most stolen thing, and this is old, this is from the ‘90s and the 2000s. But the most common thing stolen were mooring lines. Mooring lines are actually very easy to steal because they're laid out on deck. They can put one end of it over the side and then they've got a whole mooring line and they can unlay the line, make a net, and feed their village. So there's that kind of pirate and then there are the pirates for a cause where they're going after ransom. For example, the Tamil Tigers are not a thing anymore, but for a while, they were really active also in the Indian Ocean.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: Wow. Who knew there was such diversity? Not surprising. But while we're on the subject of hazards, I have seen some incredible videos of ships getting completely submerged by monster waves. So dealing with rough weather and the uncertainty around weather patterns. How about that? Did you have a lot of different experiences with rough weather? Would you notice on a supertanker?
CAPT Cynthia Robson: We had our own Beaufort scale. Are you familiar with the Beaufort scale? Sandy is? Yeah, the different scales of wind and the Beaufort scale for land, for example, we'll say leaves move or the tree branches move and then you get up to force seven and the tree is uprooted or whatever. And we had our own Beaufort scale for supertankers. And I just remember at force five, it said, "Joggers must stay indoors". You're right. And when a ship is 1200 ft long, then you don't feel it.
Sandy Winnefeld: You probably create your own weather.
CAPT Cynthia Robson: But then you see a normal size ship going past you because you are also very slow. And that ship is flopping around quite a bit. So it tossed about in a way that a supertanker wouldn't be. But there are rogue waves. It is a true phenomenon. There's a place where the Agulhas current, you're testing my memory. But two counter currents I think it's the Agulhas current that meets the west wind drift and one's cold, one's hot. And the two currents that meet together there can cause quite large waves that are unexpected.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: I'd like to circle back to some things you said earlier about people, “Oh, women can't do that, or we don't allow women to do that.” But clearly, you did. It sounds like you broke some walls down. Actually, buildings probably more than walls. So on the cruise that you've sailed with, were you usually the only woman, or was it a more diverse group? I mean, it's probably diverse language-wise or country-wise, but how many other women did this and what kind of experiences did you have breaking those walls down?
CAPT Cynthia Robson: There were twelve prep cadets, females at Texas A&M in Galveston when I started, and I was the only one of that twelve that graduated in the licensed program. Others stopped the licensed program and went on to pursue other unlicensed degrees. But that was tough most of the time. Sailing in the ‘70s, sailing as a cadet, not only was I the only female, but I often got something like, "You're not really the cadet, you're the daughter of the chief engineer." Even when I started night mating, they would say, "You're the daughter of the captain, or you can't really be the third mate," or whatever.
Sandy Winnefeld: Is that when you kick them?
CAPT Cynthia Robson: No, that's only if they hit me first.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: That's when you outperform them. Right?
CAPT Cynthia Robson: So I was going to my ship. This was in LA Long Beach, and the ship was out at anchor. It was the Exxon Jamestown x Sea River. Exxon was in the process of selling their vessels, and she had been out at anchor. And I got there, it was already dark. The way that it works when vessels are at anchor is that you catch a launch out to them. And so a lot of times it's like a taxi, and you share a taxi with other vessels, and other ships are being dropped off. So I had my sea bag and I have gotten on the launch, and we were all going back to the ship or ships, and one of them asked me, "What ship are you going to?" And I said, "The Jamestown." He said, "I'm so glad. We needed a good cook."
Dr. Sandra Magnus: Oh.
CAPT Cynthia Robson: Waiting to get a cook.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: Then you corrected him?
CAPT Cynthia Robson: No, not at all. I just let them go at it. And they all started talking about how glad that– It went on, that they were really glad that I was coming on the ship because–
Sandy Winnefeld: How did they react when they saw you on the bridge standing watch?
CAPT Cynthia Robson: No. On merchant ships, the crew has to come to the master's office and sign articles, a formal agreement to sail. And so the next morning, when I'm sitting at the desk and they're signing the articles of agreement with me as the master, they were mortified.
Sandy Winnefeld: Did you ask them, "So what did you have for breakfast? How was it?"
CAPT Cynthia Robson: It’s been a good one?
Sandy Winnefeld: So one of the most fascinating things about your really impressive resume, Cynthia, is that you're qualified to operate as a master of sailing ships. So that's a little different experience, right? So tell us about your experience in that world and how they're different from conventional ships.
CAPT Cynthia Robson: Tall ships. When I'm not at sea for years and years, I would go, and I would still sail on these ocean races. But the Elissa, I know Sandra is probably familiar with the Elissa in Galveston, the tall ship for Texas. She was the ship that I really learned the ropes, so to speak, learn the parts. But I was fortunate to be invited, and I think this might be what you're alluding to in the time of perestroika, when Gorbachev and President Bush, right after the fall of the Berlin Wall, it was conceived to have a joint cruise, a joint– Well, again, perestroika is a good word for it, training cruise with cadets from the United States and from the Soviet Union. And because of my experience with sailing and the ocean sail license, and also I left this out by then, I was a professor at the Maritime Academy, that's part of Texas A&M. I was invited to be the person, the faculty member to go with the cadets. It was the Soviet Union, and it was the Maritime Academy in Odesa, which, as you well know, is now Ukraine. And so I went to Ukraine or to the Soviet Union with 54 cadets from the United States, and they enrolled in classes, and I had the opportunity to teach classes. And then we sailed their tall ship from Odesa on the Black Sea to the United States. And it was a formative experience. I learned a lot, not just about sailing ships, but about people as well. And they are still my friends, and I still keep in contact with them.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: Yeah, I've spent a lot of time in Russia, similar kind of thing, but space station related, and I met a lot of really great people. It's unfortunate we have barriers to continuing our engagement these days with a lot of normal people over there. So you've sailed a lot of ships? We've covered a lot of ships today. We've covered research vessels, supertankers, sailing ships, bulk and beak ships, container ships. I mean, everything. What do you think is the most challenging type of ship you've sailed, from a technical perspective?
CAPT Cynthia Robson: Tall ships.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: Tall ships? Why?
CAPT Cynthia Robson: Tall ships take quite a bit of knowledge to sail and to operate. The knowledge of the bridge can be transferred from vessel to vessel, but knowledge of the working of the cargo, for example, of a container ship is going to be very different from the knowledge of working a tanker. But the expertise on how to handle a tall ship and understanding. Druzhba had 27 sails.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: Oh, wow. That's a lot.
CAPT Cynthia Robson: Yes, she was a full-rigged tall ship. It takes a lot of expertise to sail tall ships. You can't just tack. You have to rise, tacks, and cheats, and it's hard to even begin to describe it.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: So basically, you have to kind of manage each of the 27 sails differently and understand those nuances. Is that what makes it so complicated?
CAPT Cynthia Robson: Partly. But when you're conning a tall ship, you also have mast captains. And the mast captains, you convey your orders to the mast captain, and then the mast captain, in turn, will convey the orders to the crew that handles that mast.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: It's crew resource management as well.
CAPT Cynthia Robson: Yes.
Sandy Winnefeld: And rather than just turning a wheel with an engine, you're having to deal with the wind and going through the wind, either through the wind, through your bow, or through the stir. There are hazards and weirdness associated if you get stuck in irons. I can understand why you would say a sailing ship would be very challenging, to say nothing of the fact that there probably aren't that many crew members on the planet who have any clue how to operate a sailing ship.
CAPT Cynthia Robson: People would be surprised at how many tall ships there still are, actually. I was honored to be asked to be a parade marshal for OpSail 2000, and it was amazing the number of sailing vessels and also military vessels that came to OpSail 2000. But, for example, if you're sailing a regular sailboat that has fore-and-aft rigs, such as a sloop, or ketch, a yawl, schooner, it's very different, for example, in how you turn it from turning a tall ship because if you turn a tall ship, you can't swing it through the wind because she'll back, she'll just start going backwards. And so you have to do something called wearing, which is like jibing each time you want to turn.
Sandy Winnefeld: Just turn through the wind. Yeah. So speaking of all these ships, you're now teaching the next generation of merchant mariners at Kings Point. What kind of advice would you give someone, including a young woman, who would be thinking about entering that line of work?
CAPT Cynthia Robson: Oh, there's so much opportunity that is there now, and there is no limit, male or female. I am very happy to the fact that I've been here at the US Merchant Academy for 27 going on 28 years as of July. And when I started teaching, there would be maybe one female in a class, a couple of females, or a lot of classes with no females. Now we have quite a number of females, and I think it's wonderful to see that and to see the women take the leadership positions and to read about the number of women that are on board ship. And I think the more women on board ship, the better the crew, and the better the crews get. I remember when I first started sailing for Shell Oil Company, and they told me that I was an experiment. The captain came to me before we even got on board the ship. He told me that they had asked him permission to put a woman on his crew. And he said back, it all depends on what she looks like. And this is the funniest part, they told him that I look like Sarah Fawcett, so then it was okay. I do not look like Farah Faucet. I never did. But I thought that was funny. So the point there is the crew had been all male on many of the ships that I sailed. But I more than once had men come up to me and say, “Oh, we're so glad there's a woman on board because now they take showers.”
Dr. Sandra Magnus: Yeah, it's a civilizing influence.
Sandy Winnefeld: Almost anyone in the Navy would tell you that when we started bringing women on aircraft carriers, it changed the culture of the ship in a good way. I was the executive officer of USS John C. Stennis and it was really the first aircraft carrier where we didn't transition the ship to women. We actually built it from scratch with women. It was even more amazing. So I know where you're coming from. Pretty amazing.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: We're getting near the end here. But I have to ask this question. I was chatting with a friend who's a travel buff a couple of years ago, and she told me that it's possible to book a cabin as a passenger on a merchant marine ship and travel around except for a few areas of the world because of pirates, where you have to disembark and match a step. So would you recommend that? It sounds really intriguing.
CAPT Cynthia Robson: Totally recommended. Totally recommended. I wrote a chapter in a book years ago. The book was The Worst Case Scenario Handbook, and the chapter I wrote was on how to abandon ship. I guess the reason that comes up is because the number of people that passenger ships carry, and I'm not saying at all, and I don't mean to imply that they're unsafe, they go to great lengths to have optimal safety on board. You're not going to be happy on a merchant ship if you are looking for the casino and the dancing at night and the theater and the water slides and the golf or whatever. But if you're looking for a relaxing time and really good food also, that's why they wanted the cook, remember?
Dr. Sandra Magnus: Yeah. It's a moral thing, isn't it?
Sandy Winnefeld: Oh, yeah.
CAPT Cynthia Robson: I would totally recommend it.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: It sounds intriguing. I thought, “Wow, if I ever wanted to do some writing or some reading or just peaceful, it sounds like quite an adventure.”
Sandy Winnefeld: And go say take a good book. But there's nothing like the view.
CAPT Cynthia Robson: And there's movies, there's libraries on board merchant ships. You can go through the Panama Canal. Of course, you can on a passenger ship as well, but you would go to different places. It used to be that merchant ships, and merchant ships even today can carry up to twelve passengers. Beyond that, they're required to have a doctor on board and so they don't carry more than that. But you still can. You're going to have to book from the last port if it's a US flag or maybe a foreign flag too, don't quote me again, but from the last port in the United States. There's YouTube videos out there.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: Yeah, I'm going to add it to my bucket list. It just sounds like an adventure.
CAPT Cynthia Robson: It is an adventure.
Sandy Winnefeld: Well, speaking of adventures, this has been a great adventure for us. We've always wanted to talk to a Merchant Marine captain. We're delighted to have had somebody who really started off as one of the pioneers of women in this business. And we wish we had more time to talk about storms and rocks and all that kind of stuff. But thank you so much and thanks for what you're doing for the next generation. It's really incredible.
CAPT Cynthia Robson: I love my midshipmen. I love all the midshipmen here. They're the ones that are the reason that I teach, and it's all of the Merchant Marine academies, the cadets, and the midshipmen, and they're our future.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: So I'll just add, Cynthia, hat off to you for breaking all those doors down. I have a huge amount of respect for what you did, and I know it was not easy, and just kudos, and it's lovely to chat with you today.
CAPT Cynthia Robson: Thank you, Sandra.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: That was Captain Cynthia Robson, Merchant Marine captain and now a professor at the United States Merchant Marine Academy in Kings Point, New York. I'm Sandra Magnus.
Sandy Winnefeld: And I'm Sandy Winnefeld.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: Check us out on social media, including a short video of our interview with Cynthia on TikTok. Our handle is very simple @theadrenalinezone.
