Risk Equals Musical Magic with Ángel Gil-Ordóñez
This episode is sponsored by Culligan Water
In this engaging podcast episode, Ángel Gil-Ordóñez, a Spanish-born American conductor, delves into the essence of music and conducting. Gil-Ordóñez begins by highlighting the element of risk in great performances. He states, "Risk is the key to a great performance. That surprise factor is what makes it." This philosophy underscores his approach to music, emphasizing the unique, ephemeral nature of each performance. According to Gil-Ordóñez, music only exists in the moment it is created, and every performance is a distinct experience.
Dr. Sandra Magnus and Sandy Winnefeld, the hosts, discuss the enigmatic role of the conductor, often perceived as a commanding figure with arms in constant motion. Gil-Ordóñez reveals that this role is indeed a bit like magic. The unspoken communication between the conductor and musicians results in an intricate and harmonious performance. He further elaborates on his journey, from growing up in Madrid and studying music despite societal disapproval, to becoming a civil engineer before fully dedicating himself to his passion for music.
The conversation then explores the challenges of playing string instruments. Gil-Ordóñez shares his experience with the violin, describing it as a "non-rewarding instrument" due to its difficulty. He explains that mastering any instrument is challenging, but string instruments require years of producing "cat sounds" before achieving a pleasing melody. This rigorous training, he believes, is essential for conductors, as it provides a deep understanding of the orchestra's foundation.
Gil-Ordóñez also discusses his initial encounters with music, from playing the accordion due to limited options at school to eventually finding his true calling in conducting. He explains the similarities between music and engineering, both requiring a logical process and intricate development, akin to building a structure. This blend of disciplines has shaped his unique approach to music, emphasizing the importance of composition in a conductor's training.
The path to becoming a professional conductor is not straightforward. Gil-Ordóñez emphasizes the importance of playing an instrument and understanding music deeply, and stresses that a conductor must be a musician first, with a strong foundation in composition. This understanding of music's structure and the ability to convey ideas to an orchestra are crucial skills for a conductor.
Gil-Ordóñez's approach to conducting involves allowing musicians to express themselves, creating a dynamic and surprising performance. He believes that the process of preparing for a concert is the most fascinating part of conducting. By letting musicians contribute their unique interpretations, he ensures that each performance is fresh and spontaneous, enhancing the overall musical experience.
The role of the conductor extends beyond merely leading the orchestra. Gil-Ordóñez explains that the conductor's task is to create tension through sound and bring it back to silence. This process involves engaging with the audience's energy and adjusting the performance in real-time based on their reactions. He shares insights from his mentor, who believed that sound alone is not music; it becomes music through the conductor's ability to shape it.
Finally, Gil-Ordóñez talks about the founding of the PostClassical Ensemble, aimed at transforming the classical music experience. By integrating storytelling and contextual elements, the ensemble attracts diverse audiences and enhances the appreciation of music. Gil-Ordóñez's innovative approach demonstrates his commitment to making classical music accessible and exciting for all.
This episode provides a deep dive into the world of conducting, offering valuable insights into the artistry and challenges faced by conductors. Gil-Ordóñez's passion for music and his dedication to pushing the boundaries of traditional concert formats make for a truly compelling and enlightening conversation.
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Transcript
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: Risk is the key to a great performance. That surprise factor is what makes it. This is the way I approach conducting. I want to be surprised because every time- this is the magic thing about music, is that it doesn't exist anymore. It only exists the moment that it happens. And every moment that it happens is different.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: If you've been to a symphony or even a musical, it is hard to miss the commanding figure of the orchestra.
Sandy Winnefeld: Conductor with his or her back to the audience, all we see is arms and baton in constant motion, occasionally stopping to point at one section or another or to reach for the ceiling.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: And it's a bit like magic, watching the unknown unspoken, and to the audience, mysterious communication happening between the conductor and the musicians that result in such an amazing complexity of sounds.
Sandy Winnefeld: Well, our guest today, Angel Gil Ordonez, is a Spanish born american conductor who's led orchestras on multiple continents. These days he's based in Washington, DC as the co-founder of the PostClassical Ensemble.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: But before we begin our conversation with Angel, to get a peek behind the curtain, we would like to thank our sponsors, Culligan.
Sandy Winnefeld: Culligan's drinking water systems deliver the superior filtration and refreshing hydration you need to fuel your high performance lifestyle. Culligan. It's water you love.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: And we caught up with Angel in his home in Washington, DC. Angel, it is a pleasure to have you, a guest on The Adrenaline Zone, and I'm very much looking forward to this conversation.
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: I'm very, very happy to be with you, Sandra and good Sandy here. Thank you very much for inviting me to this conversation.
Sandy Winnefeld: So, Angel, it's such a pleasure to meet you. I've always wanted to talk to a conductor fascinated by the business. And so we're going to start by asking you, where did you grow up and where did you find your passion for music?
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: So I was born in Madrid, originally from Madrid, and I studied there. At the time, being a musician was not precisely the most best regarded thing in society. So for my parents, I studied music from an early age. I was actually this kid that sang very well and was asked to sing in every family holiday, which I hated, as you can imagine. And, “Oh, Angelito has to sing, “ and I had to sing. But I had actually a very good voice. I was part of the member of the choir in the school. I started. Actually, my first instrument was the guitar and the accordion. And then when I was around nine, I started playing the violin. But as I said, in Spain at the time, being a musician was like, okay, you are studying music and what else? So I had to combine my passion for music with studies at the university. And actually I became a civil engineer, but I never worked as a civil engineer. As soon as I had my diploma, I told my parents, “Okay, here is the diploma. And now I'm going to dedicate myself to music, a professional.”
Sandy Winnefeld: So I have a quick follow up on that. You said you picked up the violin. I once picked up a violin and I looked at it and I said, how do I play this? There are no frets. I guess a violinist just has to know from memory, from feel, from sound, where to move your fingers. Right?
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: Absolutely. So I always say that every instrument, to play well, an instrument is very difficult. Whatever instrument you are in your study, it's very difficult to master an instrument. But it's true that string instruments are especially difficult. So this is what I say, there are rewarding instruments and non rewarding. And the string section goes in the non rewarding instrument. So if you put your fingers in the right keys on the piano, after one month, you are able to play a melody, but in the strings, you have to build the instrument, and it takes– I can tell you from my own experience, my main instrument is violin. You are producing cat sounds for three years until you are able to produce a real melody that somebody is able to listen to. So actually, a string instrument is also a very good training for a conductor. I'm very happy that I studied a string instrument because, as you know, the base of the orchestra is the string section. And to be able to know well string instruments has come immensely.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: I have to ask, though, why the accordion? As a young boy, what drew you to the accordion?
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: Exactly. That's an excellent question, because that was the only instrument that was taught in the school. So either you play the accordion or that's it. So there was the accordion, guitar, or being part of the choir. So there were no other options. So I said, “Okay, all right, I’ll play the accordion.” And actually, it was a beautiful instrument, by the way. In Spain, actually, there was, probably not anymore, but there was a very important tradition of accordion, especially in the north, in the basque country, and there is a tradition of playing the instrument. It was a weird choice, but I enjoyed it very much.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: Okay, before we get into the music more thoroughly, you studied engineering and music. So do you see, what kind of overlapping themes do you see between the music and engineering? Anything, just out of curiosity?
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: Absolutely. Well, I think the logical process of mathematics in an engineer is very similar to that of studying at school. Instead, how a piece evolves has to do a lot even with mathematical formulas. In the end, you are developing something, and how you build– My specialty was civil engineering. So it was how to build something has to do a lot with the building, especially composing a symphony, for instance.
Sandy Winnefeld: So, Angel, you moved around Europe a lot and studied under many different musicians. Tell us, what is the path to becoming a professional musician and then following from that to become a conductor? How does that work?
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: A musician can only call themselves a musician if you play an instrument. So as long as you sing or you play an instrument, you are a musician. And then there are many possibilities.You can play all kinds of instruments, you can be a singer, you can be a composer. And in my case, I felt that what made me a better musician than a violinist was actually being in front of a group and working with people. There is a very fascinating component about conducting, which is the working with human beings and conveying things to human beings and having a response from those human beings. And this, to me, is fascinating, is actually what makes the conducting so exciting, in my opinion, is that you are sharing ideas and experiences with another human being. It's not just you by yourself playing the instrument, which is beautiful. It's very rewarding, but to me, it's much more rewarding to make music with folks.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: So what's the difference, though, between playing an instrument with a group of people and producing music as a team in that direction and the fulfilling you get there versus conducting a group of musicians who are playing together to produce the music? Because it's also a team, but it's a different thing.
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: It is. And actually, in my opinion, the most difficult experience for a musician is to be a member of an orchestra, because when you are playing as a soloist, you have much more possibilities of expressing yourself. And when you are performing as a member of a chamber music group, the stream quartet or the trio, you have more possibilities of expressing your own personality. But in a big group, you have to balance your sound, your ideas with the rest of the group in order to create this beautiful balance that an orchestra is. So it's a very difficult effort. You have really to somehow sacrifice your own interest and your own ideas for the good of it. And in my opinion, that is an extraordinary gift, and it's an extraordinary show of generosity in an orchestra.
Sandy Winnefeld: So I'm sure becoming a conductor does not work. Like, “Hey, I want to be a conductor,” and the next day you find yourself standing in front of an orchestra. There's got to be a path, a career path. Is it an academic path, the training required to be a conductor? Because I'm sure there are specific skills you have to acquire to be a world class conductor.
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: Absolutely. So, first of all, you have to play an instrument, at least, because if you play an instrument, you are a musician, which is I always say when they ask me, “What do you do?” The first thing I say is not, I am a conductor. The first thing I say is, I am a musician. And it happens that I express my musicianship through conducting. So in my opinion, the best training for a conductor is composition. I actually say that every conductor has to compose and every composer has to conduct, because the two experiences are complementary. When you have a personal relationship with the score, you have gone through the process of writing music. When you approach the score, it's a familiar element. So I would say if a young musician approached me and asked me that this happening with my students, of course, the more instruments you play, the better. I mean, just playing while an instrument is one life, but if you can dedicate, if you have to choose, I would actually have just one instrument, I would advise the piano. Because the piano helps you to learn the score much faster. And then there is another very important component, the piano, which teaches you to accompany other instruments, which is something crucial in conduct that we might talk about later about the difference between conducting an orchestra and accompanying an instrumentalist. And that being a pianist, you are used to accompanying singers, accompany violinists. So for those like me, that work terrible and keep being terrible at the piano, we had to jump on the effort of accompanying a soloist real cold, right with the orchestra. So you have to do it and you do it talking about taking risks, but the piano really helps in that. So I would say piano and composition, to me, are the best training for a conductor.
Sandy Winnefeld: Angel, I'm almost a little intimidated to ask this question, but how many instruments do you play?
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: Okay. So the violin is the one that they really played. I unfortunately had nothing left to stop playing because, I mean, if you don't play the instrument every day, instead of becoming a satisfaction, it becomes a frustration. So as soon as I started conducting professionally, I had to stop. I am a terrible pianist. I played the clarinet a little bit, and as I already told you, it was the awful key that sounded well. So actually I was a good singer. I also studied voice with a phenomenal voice teacher. I was a baritone. Learning voice has also helped me a lot in conducting, because it helps you work with choruses, work with choirs. So if you also know how the voice works, it was very helpful, too.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: I want to take a side trip down this composition path for a minute, because we didn't talk about that earlier when you and I were chatting. So is it hard to compose the score? And is it, and when you put that out there for the first time, is it a little bit scary to see how people are going to receive it, or how does that work?
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: I have to say that my training is composition, I haven't composed much. I hope that maybe at some point you need a different state of mind for composition. When you are conducting you are so focused on learning repertoire or learning or the music. Composition requires a different state of mind that right now I don't have that state of mind. I have done a lot of arrangements, which is studied orchestration, how an orchestra works, which is arranged for your large orchestra to a smaller orchestra. And that really helped me, the training as a composition. But, I can tell you, for a composer, when you listen for the first time, the music you have written is always a surprise. There is always something. Which it has to be that way, and actually have premiered a lot of contemporary music. And it's so interesting to see the reaction of the composers when they listen for the first time, the music. It's so interesting. Composers are actually the worst interpreters of their own music. They need us. They need us to guide us. And it's so interesting because in my experience, I have premiered many, many make contemporary music. And I can tell you that they understand the structure, they understand the colors, they understand, but they're very lost in how fast the music has to go. So isn't that interesting?
Dr. Sandra Magnus: Yeah, that's it.
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: They think they know, but they don't. And then I change the theme, and I tell them, “Why don't we try this?” And they say, “You are right, that's it.” But there is always something extraordinary– It's very beautiful to premiere music with a composer that is alive, that is next to you. They are so excited. They are so grateful. It's a very beautiful thing.
Sandy Winnefeld: But I would imagine as a composer that it's like writing a short story or a novel where you're never really done. You can always make it a little better. And when the composer hears it for the first time, it's like, “Oh, I need to change this one phrase or whatever.” Be interesting.
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: It's very interesting what you say. It depends on the personality of the composer. There are people that are so convinced of what they do that they don't touch a single note unless there is a wrong note in the score or something like that. But others are true that they listen to the result and they say, “Oh, this melody is actually not for the opal, this is for the fluid,” and they will change it, but it depends on the personality. So each composer is also a different mind in that sense.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: Okay, so let's jump into the conducting for a moment. First of all, I have to ask, is it competitive to be a conductor? Is it sort of like a stair step up from a musician or how does that work?
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: I'm still trying to find out how this profession works. So, I think it's a little bit like everything in life. So the question is when you acquire a knowledge that is very specific, of course, there is a competition because there are not that many orchestras. So I was lucky, probably. I went to a competition when I went to study in Germany as Sandy said, and then I came back to Spain. I was chosen as the Associate Conductor of the National Symphony. And that, of course, was an excellent way to start. That was probably the most important, at the time, orchestra in Spain. That opened me many doors. In your profession, it is a little the same. There are not that many opportunities, and you have to be at the right time and the right place, and things like that happen. So many extraordinary conductors, I'm sure that we don't know them and they didn't have that opportunity. It's terrible to say that many very famous conductors are not that good, and they are very famous, which is the natural thing to me to do. I mean, not the best doctor is the most famous doctor. But anyway, that's another topic. But it's true that it's a combination of things. I'm totally convinced that if you really are passionate about what you do, you will find that door opening at some point. I want to be an optimist in that sense. It might take longer than you think, but I mean, against something with passion, there is no way that you cannot find a way to spread yourself.
Sandy Winnefeld: I would imagine that if you set a score in front of a bunch of orchestra musicians and somebody said, go. That they could play the piece, but it probably would not be very good. Can you tell us what the role of the conductor is? How does the conductor add value to the beautiful sounds you hear from a symphony?
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: Let me give you this phrase from my mentor, from my teacher that I think explains everything very well. My teacher would say that sound is not music. Sound under specific circumstances can become music. And that the difference is that if you have extraordinary players, like I have in my post classical ensemble, and you give them a piece that they don't know, and you just beat the polls, they will play all the notes. Is that music?
Sandy Winnefeld: No, probably not.
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: So that's the difference. The difference is that what the conductor is at, during the rehearsals, to create that sound, that beautiful sound. Just having 100 people playing the right notes together is an extraordinary experience already.
Sandy Winnefeld: Yes.
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: But the difference, and this is to me the big lesson with my teacher, is that this is not music, this is extraordinarily well organized sound. Music is more than that. And what is music? Well, music is, in the end, the development of attention. We start from zero, from silence. We create tension through sound. That tension develops, achieves a moment in which cannot reach more tension, and goes back to silence. So my mission is to teach my musicians that process. How do we create tension, we extend the tension? Because the tension is not linear. It doesn't go like this. You create tension, distant, tension, distant. It reaches the maximum point of tension, and the process back is the same. Distant, tension, distant and back to zero.
Sandy Winnefeld: So let me try something on you to see if this makes sense. I'll just use this as an example. I can't remember.
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: Does that make sense? Well, first of all, does that make sense to you?
Sandy Winnefeld: Yes. Oh, absolutely. But I want to test my knowledge here. So I think it's the second movement of Beethoven's 6th Symphony. That is a thunderstorm.
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: Yes.
Sandy Winnefeld: And you can play the notes, but the conductor turns it into a thunderstorm. Is that a fair appraisal with the right crescendos and pauses and it's like this has to sound like a thunderstorm, an interpretation. Is that a fair interpretation of what you're saying?
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: Yes. I mean, if the thunderstorm is not there, then you are not representing the– But look, I'm also not very into music as a way to create images.
Sandy Winnefeld: Okay, fair enough.
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: My teacher would say that actually music for us westerners is the only possibility to transcend reality. So music gives us the opportunity to start, stop thinking and just listen. So in the end music can become a way of meditation, of transcending reality. So if you are listening to Beethoven and thinking, “Oh, this is the storm, and now this is the cloud and this is the rain,” then you are kind of wasting an opportunity to transcend that, to really listen, to be in the moment and experiencing every single moment of this process that I mentioned to you. So I know that this might sound a little controversial, but it's not my approach to music. When I'm conducting an orchestra, I'm not trying to show a thunderstorm or the gallop of the swiss artillery in Williamstown. I'm really trying to get the audience to experience something that brings them out of their brain.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: So how do the styles vary between conductors and the way they go about making these effects? And what kind of an impact does that have on the effect that they're trying to get out of the music or the orchestra for the music?
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: Well, this is why, Sandra, if you go and you go to a bit of 6th Symphony and you listen to five different versions of the symphony with five different conductors, you are going to have a completely different experience of that. So it's that moving, that sound dimension conducted by five different conductors is going to sound completely different, and this is what you are looking for there. That would be the approach. There will be the conductor that is more interested in showing that part of the more visual parts with a little more effect in the orchestra, which is maybe a little more contrast from the fortress to the pianos, etc. So you will see that listening to different versions of a piece.
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Sandy Winnefeld: So let's talk about how you bring a piece of music to life. And I'm talking about rehearsal here. Day 1, you sit down, and you're starting this process. First of all, how long does it take for you to get the orchestra where you want it to be in producing this music? And what is the process? What are the kinds of things you do as a conductor to shape it the way you want it to sound?
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: This is fascinating. It's actually the process of preparation of a concert, in my opinion, is the most fascinating part. I remember my teacher in one of the rehearsals with the Munich Philharmonic, in one of those moments in which the rehearsal, everything is so beautiful. It's great. He stopped and said, “Isn't that fantastic? Is it a beauty that we have to do a concert?” I loved it. So the process was so beautiful. After saying, “No, too fast, too soft, too forte.” And then suddenly it happens, then, “Oh, God, we have to work closer. I love it.” So to me, the process is actually the fascinating part about conducting, which is– So what is what I do? What I do is, I think it's crucial to leave as much as possible an option for the musicians to express themselves. So you are in a collective. So the first thing I do is I read in mind that we are playing a movement of a Brahms even first moment. I read the first moment from the beginning to the end without stopping. I have my idea of the symphony. I have learned the symphony. This is the first process. The conductor has to know what the music is about. But I try to let the musicians express themselves. And it's so beautiful because they surprise you. Things that you think this melody in the oval has to go like this. And then suddenly the oval takes a little more time there, or operate it a little faster. And I think it's very beautiful that you are able to be surprised by that. Not that you, “Okay, this is the way it has to be.” No. And this is something I learned from my teacher. If this is something about what makes music so exciting is the surprise fact, you have to be surprised.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: I was just thinking about that. Because if you leave room for the musicians to kind of do their own thing, that means there is some surprise. I wouldn't know if I would call it risk, even on the night of the concert, what they're going to show up with.
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: There is the risk. And actually, risk is the key to a great performance. That surprise factor is what makes the– This is the way I approach conducting. I want to be surprised, because every time, you know, this is the magic thing about music, is that it doesn't exist anywhere. It only exists the moment that it happened. So in every moment that it happens is different. So if you let that surprise factor, that risk factor happening, this is what makes the music exciting. And also let you react with spontaneity to the sound. This is crucial. React with spontaneity, because my PostClassical Ensemble in a specific theater will sound differently than in another theater. Acoustics play a very important role, too.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: Something you said. Does that mean, did you sort of real time on the stage change the way you're conducting based on the sort of spontaneity that the musicians are presenting to you?
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: Yes, yes. And what about the audience? What about the audience? The audience plays a crucial role in the performance because that energy is there. And Gustav Mahler would say something that I love, which is, “If you are playing something slow and the audience is not reacting, play slower.” Isn't that phenomenal? So you would play it faster. So that. No, no, no, play it slower. And the audience would react, then they would react. It's like when I always think of the image of the teacher at this, yelling to the students in the class, nobody's listening, and then she starts speaking very, very softly, and then suddenly there is a silence. So it's a little bit the same image there.
Sandy Winnefeld: So you have your back to the audience.
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: Yes, but I feel. I feel. Of course we feel. I mean, the audience is there. The energy. When there is a moment of tension, the audience reacts with you. It's fascinating. And if the audience is not reacting, it's because you are not doing right.
Sandy Winnefeld: So I think I know the answer to this question, but I want to pose it in an odd way. And that is, I'm guessing that when you decide we're going to produce this piece of music in this orchestra and we're going to play it for an audience, the last thing you do is to go listen to how somebody else has produced it.
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: Yes. Thank you for saying that. Thank you for saying that. Because this is very dangerous, because there is an influence, I have to confess, and I have to say that when I'm accompanying a soloist, I do that because it helps me. Actually, I listen to many different versions of that piano concerto or violin concerto to see how different approaches. Because when I'm accompanying a soloist, I'm not in charge anymore. Well, I mean, I'm in charge, but not 100% in charge.
Sandy Winnefeld: Yes. Understand.
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: But I try. Sometimes when you have– I mean, if they call you, “Well, you have to conduct this piece in two weeks,” then I go to a recording, to a conductor that I somehow trust, and I say that it really helps me immensely to prepare things, but I try not to do it as much as I can. I try not to listen to recordings because of that influence that you are mentioning.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: Are there any composers whose works, either past or you mentioned, the contemporary composers, because you enjoy getting the reaction, but are there other, either past or present specific composers that you enjoy conducting a lot?
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: Yes, if you tell me, it's very difficult to say what is the– I’m especially interested, it really resonates with me a lot, the music of Haydn. And let me tell you why. Because he understands music also the way I understand it. Sometimes I feel that I'm a professional of the music and my job is to conduct. And I'm a little bit against this romantic thing because I'm inspired, and all this. Haydn wrote 104 symphonies, not because he was inspired, but because he was paid for that. And if he wouldn't write a symphony, he wouldn't be paid. It's like, bah, who in the hell in the name of God wants to write 400 cantatas? There is no way. But because that was the way of his living and he produced extraordinary music because he was– This is something of the part of the music that I like very much, which is this le metier. As the French say, being an artisan, creating something that has to happen. I need to have this ready for tomorrow. And I like Dati Haydn. And he has an extraordinary sense of humor, which I think is crucial being a musician. If you don't have a sense of humor, you are in the wrong profession, too.
Sandy Winnefeld: I don't know that anybody would ever accuse Beethoven of having a sense of humor, at least with his symphonies, maybe with his piano.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: How do you pick up humor in music like that?
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: When you know well how a symphony is written, then you compare and you see things in composers that say, he's making a joke here because he is contradicting what everybody else would have been doing there.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: So it's non conformity.
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: Non conformity. In these contradictions. There is humor.
Sandy Winnefeld: You've got to be a pretty educated audience to pick that up, though, don't you think?
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: Do me a favor, and from now on, try to listen to music with this idea of there is some sense of humor in this space. And you would be surprised how Beethoven has jokes, too, and he uses things like suddenly a popular song when in one of the most profound parts of a symphony, then there is a melody that is sung by the peasants. So he's kind of saying, don't take it. Be too serious. So I think it's very important. And Haydn is, in my opinion, a master of working with this kind of sense of humor.
Sandy Winnefeld: I would think Mozart would be the same.
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: Absolutely, absolutely. These composers that produce symphonies like sausages, at some point they would say, “What the hell, let's do this here.”
Dr. Sandra Magnus: Well, you know, Angel, this is all about risks, and we've talked about it a little bit, but what would you describe as taking risks as a conductor that we haven't covered already?
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: There is always a risk when you are conveying ideas to a group of people, you are taking a risk there, how those ideas are being accepted. But I think to me, the most important part of the risk is what we mentioned before, which is to allow yourselves to be surprised, which is to give the possibility to the musicians to surprise you. And then, of course, your brain has to be wired for that. There are people that wouldn't accept that. This is how we do this, and that's it. There is no way. There are conductors that don't accept any suggestion from the musicians. This is the way we want. I want the symphony. I believe the symphony has to be that way. I'm of the opinion that precisely because music is something that happens every time that is produced, to leave the opportunity for surprise is beautiful is what makes the process really extraordinary. And there is a risk on that. But if you are well trained, I mean, as I tell my students, don't worry, it's just the first 25 years, and that's it.
Sandy Winnefeld: Well, speaking of 25 years or even more, in your case, you must have grown in the profession. In other words, from the earliest days of being a young conductor to today, you must have changed over time. How has your approach matured over all these years?
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: I mean, of course it's knowledge, I think, authority. You gain authority through knowledge. To me, that's a crucial thing. When you are in front of an orchestra with knowledge, then you receive authority immediately. I learned that the more honest you are, the better everything is. So if you are conducting and make a mistake, you say, I'm sorry, my fault, and nothing happened. The terrible thing is that many conductors that are not that secure just blame the others for their mistakes, and that's a terrible thing. So I think I've learned. I mean, of course, being more aware of how to behave, even bodily in front of an orchestra, what works. I did at the beginning, I wanted to show too many things. And you learn to reduce your expression, and you learn that little by little that the less the better. And this is something that you learn with age, too. And then, of course, you learn a lot of psychology. When I was a young conductor, I would see that the trumpet player would look at me like this, like, “Oh, he hates me,” I would say. He doesn't hate me. He just maybe has a problem, a moral problem, or he had a fight with his wife, the money. He doesn't hate me at all. On the contrary, he's just like that. So I learned not to personalize those human behaviors. So in the end you feel not to pretend and being more honest, I think this is, to me, the key is instead of pretending more or trying to convey things, just be yourself and convey with honesty what you want to share with the musicians. And it really works.
Sandy Winnefeld: Yes, and with humility.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: So I have to ask, what is the scariest, most nerve wracking performance you ever had and why?
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: Well, when you are premiering contemporary music, not only contemporary music, but there is music in the 20th century that is very difficult to conduct technically because there are too many things going on. Where I'm really having more heart attacks is when I'm accompanying a soloist. And this is back to what we said before, which is I don't have the whole controller, because now I am a company, not a soloist, and the soloist might surprise me even more than I hope. And it is beautiful to have surprises. But what kind of surprises? I'm going to tell you an anecdote. You are going to understand the media. I had what was one of the scariest moments in my career. I was with the National Symphony in Madrid and I was asked to accompany a soloist in three piano concerto by Mozart in the same program. Absurd thing that I don't advise to do to anybody. Ridiculous. Who wants to hear too, in the same performance, three piano concert by bot. Anyway, that was the idea of the soloist. And you know what happened? In one of the concerts he went the melody to the other concert. Can you mind? So you're accompanying something, right? And then in Mozart when you are playing three piano concertos, then suddenly it is the same tonality and he went from one concerto to the other. So I was like, “What the hell? What do we do?” So what do you do in these cases? Don't do anything. You keep going. The musicians were looking at me like–
Dr. Sandra Magnus: What is he doing?
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: What is he doing? I kept going. It was like 10 seconds or 15 seconds of I don't know what is happening here. And then suddenly, finally, the soloist, of course, he immediately snaps out of it. And then he came back to the right place. So it was like, my goodness. Then, of course, our beautiful, beautiful singers are also able to give you very nice heart attacks because they get so excited sometimes. Then they start singing, whatever. And I have had some cases there, too. So actually, both conducting contemporary music in some opera with singers, is the– Because in the end, when you lose control of what is happening is when you really enter enough moments of very, very several risks that you cannot predict what will happen. But anyway, on the other hand, working with a soloist is beautiful. If you have the right soloist that actually knows what he's doing is very gratifying because it's very rewarding too, it's a collaboration between things, but it can be also traumatic.
Sandy Winnefeld: Just a couple of quick questions as we're getting closer to the end here. You founded the PostClassical Ensemble. Tell us about that, and tell us where you're trying to take that group.
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: So I always wonder why people that love visual arts, that go to the National Gallery of Art or the Phyllis Collection, people that go to film festivals, people that love theater and are able to attend a sexy performance that is 3 or 4 hours, don't go to concerts? Why is that? I always wonder about that. I mean, these are people that love jazz or other popular music. And what I came about is the idea that what is probably what is not working is the format in which classical music is being presented. So this old format of, you go to one of the regular orchestras in this motor overture, then from there you go to a violin concerto by Brahms. There is an intermission, and then a Tchaikovsky symphony. So those who have been educated in that, they have no problem. But for those who like to listen to music at home don't feel attracted to going to such an experience. So I thought we need to transform that experience. And how do we do that? Well, let's bring those elements that attract these people to the concert hall. To give you an example, why don't we tell stories instead of being so ecstatic in the concert performance?
To give you an example, last season we did a program that we call Paris at Midnight, in which we feature one of the most extraordinary piano concierge ever written in the 20th century, the piano concierge major by Maurice Ravel. So how do we tell the story of that concerto? What was in Ravel's mind in order for him to create that concerto? So then just look at what was happening in Paris in the 1920s. So we had, on the one hand, the crazy surrealist and the Daoist doing their thing. And then what was happening in Paris that was very important. The American jazz was taking Paris by storm, Josephine Baker and Sidney Bechet . So this is how we contextualize that piece. We started with an accordionist actually playing traditional parisian music to create the atmosphere, welcome to Paris. Then from there, we saw a surrealist film by Rene Claire, Completely Crazy, with music by Eric Satida, the orchestra playing live. Then we showed a clip of Josephine Baker singing and dancing. We had a small jazz group created on a stage that would play music by Sidney Bechet. And we ended the performance with a Ravel piano concert. So this is the way we think that we can attract a different audience. And for those who love music already and love the Ravel Piano Concerto, we'll discover a completely different piece if you bring those elements there. So we are working for the converted and for the non converted. So this is the way that the PostClassical Ensemble presents its performances.
Sandy Winnefeld: So the key is to find new ways to delight the audience is exactly what you're doing.
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: Exactly. I think to tell a story. There are beautiful stories in music and in the humanities. In the end, music is always there in every story, somehow. And if you are able to tell those stories and bring those elements that attract a more varied audience, you have an audience. And the reality is that, I mean, I have to say, we are sold out every time. So there is an audience in Washington eager for this kind of experience, especially in the city with, as you know, one of the highest education levels in the country. People are really interested and curious. So in the end, it's to foment and curiosity.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: Well, Angel, we’re going to have to close up here for, for the time, but this has been so delightful, and I've really enjoyed listening to your stories and getting a peek behind the curtain, as it were, to how conducting works and how musicians approach music and some of the challenges. So thank you so much for being our guest on The Adrenaline Zone. It's been wonderful.
Sandy Winnefeld: I know I'm having fun with a guest when the time goes by way, too.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: Yeah, exactly.
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: Well, Sandra and Sandy, thank you very much. And it's been a real pleasure. It's a fascinating profession, and I'm very happy and very privileged to be able to dedicate my life to this.
Sandy Winnefeld: So if you're ever in Washington, DC, go see the PostClassical on stage.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: Absolutely.
Sandy Winnefeld: You'll get to see our guest in person.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: Excellent.
Sandy Winnefeld: Well done.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: Thank you.
Ángel Gil-Ordóñez: Thank you so much.
Sandy Winnefeld: That was Angel Gil Ordonez, co-founder of the PostClassical Ensemble in Washington, DC, and guest conductor on many continents. I'm Sandy Winnefeld.
Dr. Sandra Magnus: And I'm Sandra Magnus. Thanks again to Culligan for sponsoring this episode. A high performance lifestyle deserves high performance water. Learn more@culligan.com.
Sandy Winnefeld: And please pass our podcast around to your friends, and we'll see you next week with another fun episode of The Adrenaline Zone.
